The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Once upon a time there was a thread about this, but it got thread-jacked with randomness. So, let's try again.

Since many of us are stuck without recourse to live drums (and others reject the notion outright), I thought it would be a good idea to pool ideas and resources about drum machines, programs, samples, techniques, etc.

This is particularly in reponse to LML's lament:

LML wrote:Get used to it people! Crappy drums are here to stay!

It may be presumptuous (isn't most of Song Fight?) but I'm going to proceed on the notion that folks are here largely to hone their craft and just need a nudge or pointer in the right direction.

So, I swear by leafDrums : http://www.leafdigital.com/software/leafdrums/

Which comes with a rather limited palette. To boost this, you could check out these :

http://www.drumsamples.org/

I find a lot of these tones to be hit and miss, but hey, it's free.

If you're willing to drop a little coin, these sound pretty nice:

http://www.drumwerks.com/store.html

Others are pretty happy with the Hammerhead rhythm station, which has its uses:

http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/

Ok, your turn. I'm especially interested to hear how people go about programming/arranging drum parts.

It's an expensive route, but I swear by Reason for drums.
Other people swear by other things, but it all comes down to 2 things: the sounds you use, and how you program them.

The sounds:
If you aren't going for electronic noises, you're going to want sounds that are both realistic and dynamic. By dynamic I mean that 5 snare hits in a row should NOT mean the same sample played 5 times. that sounds computery, and people can pick up on it. The are free sample players out there that are capable of loading, say, 5 slightly different snare sounds to be triggered at random on one note.
As for the actual sounds, there are free ones to be found, and I'm sure a lot of people around here (myself included) wouldn't mind sharing the free stuff they've collected, thus saving you the legwork.

The programming:
The best way to go about it, obviously, is to get an electronic kit and use it to trigger your samples. Not only will this cost you a lot of money, you'll have to learn to play the drums anyway. pff. screw that, sounds like work.
The second best alternative is to play the drums on a midi keyboard. This will keep the timing and velocity sounding "human" so that all you have left to worry about is the good samples.
If that's too much, then you're stuck sequencing beats with a mouse and a grid in your daw. In this scenario, you're going to have to work on several things to keep it from sounding computery:
1- use an imaginary drummer, and don't make this drummer hit 5 things at once. eg:don't put a hi hat, snare, and tom in the same place, since your drummer can only have 2 arms.
2- look around in your software for a humanizing or "de-quantizing" function, which will take the notes off the perfect grid, and add some randomness to the hits, since real drummers are NEVER perfectly in time (burn!) This makes a bigger difference than you might think. It's another one of those things that the human ear can detect even if it doesn't know it.
If you don't have this function in your software, no worries- turn "grid snap" off, and enter the notes by hand/mouse, and feel free to be a bit (just a bit) off.
If you have your samples set to sound different with a varying midi velocity, make sure you "humanize" that too.

keep in mind, I aint no drum guru, and feel free to suggest what I may have got wrong or missed.

I really like Jamstix.

http://www.rayzoon.com/

It comes with some very good sets of samples and you can also use any other samples that you may have.

Jamstix 2 FTW. Outside of the discerning Songfight listeners, people have asked me who's drumming on my songs. Kind of expensive if you're one of those silly people who pays for software

LOL Steve beat me to it. Actually, Steve, it was you who initially talked about it and caused me to check it out. Thank you for the good suggestion. I love it.

I mostly use EZDrummer but if budget is an issue I can also recommend this quality freebie option -

http://www.autodafe.net/gscw-drum-kit-f ... chine.html

This song from the archives is an example of what I meant about drums so fake that they have a charm all their own:

http://www.songfight.org/music/zero_to_ ... hantom.mp3

Somewhere between this and actually real sounding drums, is the Uncanny Valley into which we so often fall.

Märk wrote:Jamstix 2 FTW. Outside of the discerning Songfight listeners, people have asked me who's drumming on my songs. Kind of expensive if you're one of those silly people who pays for software

This is why you like it. http://www.rayzoon.com/mark.html

Although I've never recorded with jamstix, Steve is the one that turned me on to it too. Damn good program.

I do have a midi keyboard, so technically I could do the drums manually, I'm just not very talented at it. I used to know someone who would spend hours arranging drum tracks and frankly I just don't have the time to do it. I will check out a few of the software you guys mentioned. One day I'm gonna produce a track so damn good all of y'all will be pissing your pants in excitement. Sadly though, right now I'm not there yet. But I can appreciate the criticism coming with a solution. I just need the motivation.

In all honesty, a lot of your songs seem to be the kind of pop which tends to still have (obvious) drum machines even when the pros do it. Unless I'm wrong and you're trying to rock but the drums make me hear the wrong genre. I wouldn't worry too much about drums for a while if I were you.

I would call the music indie pop. I however think my lyrics are a little better than Britney. If you compare my music to something on the radio, there's a stark difference. But I guess my music is pop for you guys. Most of the people on here prefer mumbling into a microphone while they pick on guitar.

LML wrote: Most of the people on here prefer mumbling into a microphone while they pick on guitar.

quick. duck.

LML wrote:Most of the people on here prefer mumbling into a microphone while they pick on guitar.

The others tack the word indie in front of their style as an excuse. ZOMG!

B.F.D. and many hours for programming makes for the best fake drums Ive ever heard

Me$$iah wrote:B.F.D. and many hours for programming makes for the best fake drums Ive ever heard

+1
I think BFD and EZdrummer are without a doubt the 2 best "real" drummer programs I've heard. Mainly because you can build your own virtual drum kit, pick and choose mics and arrange the recording area to your tastes. Then just record beats, fills, etc loops and archive them away in groups and go back to them when you need a certain beat. If it needs a few tweaks, it's fast and easy. I haven't used EZdrummer yet, but I watched a tutorial and it's very similar to BFD in the ways of real drum hits, velocity adjustment, etc, except it looks easier to use because you start with a pre made drum loop and then just customize it. Whereas BFD you make your own from scratch. If I was recommending one of the two to someone that has never played drums, I'd tell them to go with EZdrummer.

By the way, this is an EZdrummer tutorial that should be watched by anyone that records they're music solo and does not play drums. It's a long 17 minute vid, but so worth the watch. http://www.toontrack.com/tv.asp?channel ... &item=40#2

Phil Wages, you NEED this program, sir.

I've been using a Boss DR-5 drum machine for years. It sounds like what it is, a drum machine from the 1990's. I've gotten better with it over the years, but it's still pretty weak. I'm currently getting very frustrated with the drum track for my GOM song, so I just downloaded LeafDrums - I'll give that a shot. I'm already liking the interface. I'll post my thoughts on it in a few days (or weeks) when I've had some more time to play with it.

My biggest downfall is that I'm not recording on a computer, so anything that comes as a plug-in simply won't work for me.

DFHS and Groovemonkee loops. Even with the loops, though, it was just an ornerous pain in the butt to program drums. I still dread having to sit down and program drums...and that kind of dread is not conducive to finishing songs (a problem of mine).

I just got Jamstix not terribly long ago, but I hadn't been able to get it to interact properly with DFHS (I've had my "sound" for too long to switch over to Jamstix's kits). I had given up on trying to fix it until I read this thread. So, I plowed through, de-bugged, re-routed and finally got it working.

And then...

Awesomeness!

I had a triplet-over-4/4 riff that'd been hanging around forever that finally found a home. I used a single (somewhat-stock-sounding) Groovemonkee loop and Jamstix made magic out of it. Granted, I had the Neil Peart "brain" doing the work for me, but it was just amazing. Fills and hi-hat galore.

So, my recommendation: start with Jamstix ($99). Even if you don't like their stock kits -and I really think they're fine, to be honest- you can always get a set of different samples later (DFHS, EZD, BFD, whatever). The key is just how easy it is to compose. Hopefully I'll be able to demonstrate this stuff in a Fight somewhere in the not-too-distant future. [Little difficult to finish songs whilst living in a hotel for the past few months.]

If anyone wants to hear the clip I was referring to, by all means PM me. Apparently you can't upload .mp3s here unless it's for a Fight.

bdog5778 wrote:Apparently you can't upload .mp3s here unless it's for a Fight.

Fixed. You can now attach mp3s and other sound file types up to 10Mb to forum posts.

JB

Damn, that's a great feature, JB! Nice!

Fixed. You can now attach mp3s and other sound file types up to 10Mb to forum posts.

Sweetness! Thanks so much. A clip is worth a thousand words, right?

So, time to put up or shut up. Having listened to my handiwork some more, the drums on the attached clip aren't NEARLY as appropriate as I originally thought. "Lars" might be the better drummer here. Further, my timing is off because I originally played the guitars over a 3/4 beat -which didn't work- and I never re-recorded.

That said, the really cool thing is that all of the fills, etc., came from a single 2-bar MIDI clip that Jamstix totally worked over. So, yes, it's the same riff for 30 seconds. Still, the point of this clip is to highlight Jamstix's ability to, well, jam. New fills, new accents, and I was even able to adjust the feel to be more "in the pocket". Enjoy.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:By the way, this is an EZdrummer tutorial that should be watched by anyone that records they're music solo and does not play drums. It's a long 17 minute vid, but so worth the watch. http://www.toontrack.com/tv.asp?channel ... &item=40#2

Phil Wages, you NEED this program, sir.

Well, there goes my Holiday budget.