The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Over in the Drumming without a drummer thread, 2dogs posted a link to this online songwriting primer.

I read through it, and it's a big ol' mixed bag, so I thought I'd share my take on it, along with the open suggestion that we find some better resources for 2dogs (and anyone else interested in songsmithing 101)...

That songwriting lesson wrote: 1- Include the title in the chorus.
2- Make sure the chorus is a general explanation of the topic
3- The verses are detailed explanation of the chorus....BUT NO REPETITION
4- Do not repeat the same word more than two times (or three max.) in a verse or chorus(the chorus itself is repeated, but within it no repetition allowed)
5- If it happens that the music doesn't fit the lyrics neatly, alter the lyrics not the music.

I break every single one of those rules multiple times in my new album. Especially #1 and #4. In fact, I break all but #5 in "Back from Juvie" alone (italics on repeated words for emphasis)...

Every time you look at me, it's like you throw the book at me
And I'm still trying to save some grace from other times I lied
Everything is pain to me, it wouldn't mean the same to me
Unless you came along for the ride...

Now, I happen to agree with #5 most of the time, but I've seen it broken effectively enough times to doubt its standing as well. I broke it in "On Your Side," and Joss Whedon breaks it on almost every song in Dr. Horrible's Singalong Blog.

Ooh, and what about this gem?

By the way, write about it as if it is personal experience...instead of thinking of "lonely people", think about "I am a lonely guy in a chat room"...That establishes a sense of credibility, which in turn ends up as a great emotional link with your listener.

What a strange example to choose! Because it's not like no one ever wrote a good song just about lonely people in general, am I right?

On the other hand, the following is good advice:

Never sacrifice the idea for the sake of a rhyming word and never put stuff together just because they rhyme...

...though it really should be amended to "...and never keep stuff together just because they rhyme." One of the amazing things about enforcing upon yourself the restraints of prosody and rhyme (and, for that matter, a tight deadline and a prescribed title) is that it makes you think of things you wouldn't have ordinarily. So if you've got an ABAB rhyme scheme, I'd encourage you to slap random words together just for the sake of a rhyme. But if it sounds stupid, don't feel married to it just because the last syllables are the same.

Just in general, the author of this article seems to be very against repetition in songs, and that advice definitely comes from a good place, but some of the hookiest hooks derive their catchiness from repetition. How many of the tracks in the "My Favorite Earworms" thread follow the rule of: "don't repeat yourself... For example, don't write 'Nobody to speak to, Nobody to hear me' "?

I'll poke around and see if I can't find a more-reputable (and better-written) songwriting guide somewhere for free on the web.

Why does this bother me? I mean, why should it bother me so?

It's a starting point, that's all, not a panacea. Like everything else in the "listen to the experts" category/ies out there, take what you want out of the infodump and move the hell on.

Just remember the disclaimers at the end of every miracle pill commercial on television, heh.

As Rabz said, that write up is really just a starting platform because a person just starting out needs some sort of basic structure. Just as my 7th grade music teacher taught me. He told me to start with the simplest structure and follow the simplest rules as a guide line. Then when the time is right to tweak and make changes to my song, I'll know. And he was so right. When I'm making music and all the parts are coming together, I hear/feel things that aren't there as if the song is asking or sometimes demanding me to add it. Sometimes it's just a certain sound or frequency. Sometimes it's a complete change in chord arrangement or the entire songs layout. But bottom line, you know how your song needs to be and at that point, basic song writing 101 is under reconstruction or thrown out completely. But low and behold, when it's time to write a new song, basic 101 is back with a smile.

Also Jon, as far as number 1 on your list, I read it different than you I think. He said, "Usually, the chorus lyrics include the song title and gives the listener a general idea about the song topic. The chorus music includes the most catchy melody in the song...The chorus is generally the part that your listener will remember from your song".

Words like "usually" and "generally" tell me that there are always exceptions to the rule. *shrugs*

By the way, this is a good thread and threads like this usually teach me new things as they build, which I know is your goal here.

We wouldn't be talking about "song structure" if 90% of all songs didn't fit into one of ten or so patterns. Doesn't mean you have to follow any rules, but for a beginner it's a great place to start. Especially someone who says outright that they don't know where to start. For someone who has great intuition and a natural sense of putting songs together in quirky unconventional ways, I wouldn't want them to change a thing, just practice their art.

However, this seems a little harsh, and is exactly the kind of thing that keeps people from pushing their musical abilities...(wouldn't want to suggest it to Elvis Costello, for instance):

5- If it happens that the music doesn't fit the lyrics neatly, alter the lyrics not the music.

Interesting subject. I've been wondering about what process other people use. Do you write some lyrics and then come up with the music? Do you take the title, find a musical phrase for it, and then write the rest of the the music and lyrics together?

Generally I take the Songflight title and meditate on it for a few days until I have something interesting to say about it. When I know what I want to say, then I can define something about the song -- will it be frenetic or calm, acoustic or electric, country or hip-hop? (Yeah, like I could do hip-hop!)

Then I get a little snippet of song for the title, within the style I've picked. For me, the melody and harmonization for this snippet arrive simultaneously, although I might adjust one or the other here and there. After that I seem to have a pretty good idea where the song is going to go.

Then things can go either way, depending on circumstances. If I get some free time and I'm around paper, I'll write the lyrics around whatever phrase I've got. I have some vague notion of how they'll get put to music, but I dont stay tied to it. When I've got lyrics I like, I'll sit down with an instrument (dictated by the song type) and write the rest of the chords and melody. At this point it pretty well just comes out of me -- I just seem to feel where to go next. Sometimes I'll draw back and change little things if I think I can get a better effect. Sometimes I'll get a big concept, like "To communicate these lines, this bit has to start out fast and then get sloggier and sloggier until it comes to a standstill," and by drawing on my modest understanding of theory and my experience with several jillion musical cliches or typical patterns, I might make it happen -- and sometimes it just won't work and I go back to something that simply feels better. (For some reason, if I can get a tritone jump in somewhere, I will.)

Or I might write the music with sketchy words, and then come back and refine the words later.

I'm conscious of structure (A A B A and so on) but there are no rules -- I create and assemble the parts based on whatever feels right.

Are other people this disorganized?

roymond wrote: However, this seems a little harsh, and is exactly the kind of thing that keeps people from pushing their musical abilities...(wouldn't want to suggest it to Elvis Costello, for instance):

5- If it happens that the music doesn't fit the lyrics neatly, alter the lyrics not the music.

See, now I read that as in change the delivery of the lyrics, like how you break up the syllables, etc. Not change the lyrics. But it does say "alter the lyrics". And I will say I do it all the time. In fact, I think it bothers Niv (more than he lets on) when I sing something he wrote and I change or take out words to flow better. But I'd never do it in a way that it changes the meaning of that line just to get a rhyme, etc.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

roymond wrote: However, this seems a little harsh, and is exactly the kind of thing that keeps people from pushing their musical abilities...(wouldn't want to suggest it to Elvis Costello, for instance):

5- If it happens that the music doesn't fit the lyrics neatly, alter the lyrics not the music.

See, now I read that as in change the delivery of the lyrics, like how you break up the syllables, etc. Not change the lyrics. But it does say "alter the lyrics". And I will say I do it all the time. In fact, I think it bothers Niv (more than he lets on) when I sing something he wrote and I change or take out words to flow better. But I'd never do it in a way that it changes the meaning of that line just to get a rhyme, etc.

Well, I guess I'd look for the most appropriate resolution rather than favor one over the other. This is where that stray 5/4 bar wakes people up, or when that 4/4 beat slides into a waltz for the end of the verse before the last chorus. If the words ask for special treatment, give it to them. I don't do it enough but love when I hear it.

I always write the words first. Then I find a few hooks. Then I meld them together, changing the words to fit the music, and changing the music to be more interesting. But I always start with the words. It's just how my brain works.

I think there are lots of ways to make a good song. Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you want to write something that will sell or get played on the radio, then there are things you can do to make success more likely, like keeping the song at 3:06, and putting the chorus up front, and writing universalist lyrics.

Personally, I don't care about selling or the radio. I write for the genre, and try to use techniques that fit in the genre. Sometimes that means putting the chorus up front. Sometimes it means universalist lyrics. Sometimes it means four-on-the-floor. Sometimes it means acoustic, sometimes it means electric, sometimes it means electronic.

Sometimes I break the rules, because I have nothing at stake except my own regard for the work I create.

JB

Well since this thread is meant to help newbies I should pipe up and say "Thank you Jon and all of you".

I've been writing songs for a couple years and its been incredibly frustrating but I'm stubborn so I won't quit. I'm at the point where I keep getting told that my songs need drums and that's where I should start my songs, with a drum track. I have no clue how to include drums in a song. I neither hear bass or drums or any kind of beat as I create a song. When I create a song its always from lyrics. And I've used several structures before I even knew there was such a thing. I usually grab a guitar and fart around until a melody comes along to fit the feeling of the lyrics and then I adjust. But as for introducing a drum track or a beat, where do I start? What must be considered? Do I go x number of bars and then do something else? And there begins the dilemma.
When I tried using a drum loop I got stuck with that for the whole song and didn't know how to get out of the loop so to speak and the song never goes where I wanted it to initially. (Heck there aren't many folk type drum loops out there).

So I thought if I learned about song writing structure that it may lead me to understand how to insert drums from the start, within the genre that I'm writing for, as Billy mentioned in the other thread. I've produced dozens of songs already but not once did I create a song where I thought to myself "hey I should use this kind of beat for my song and go from there". Any thoughts on how I should proceed to learn this aspect of song composition???

2dogs asked,

Any thoughts on how I should proceed to learn this aspect of song composition???

Your absolutely best bet is to cue up some of your favourite songs and listen to what the drummer does. Every time you hear a song on the radio, listen to what the drummer does. Just the big picture -- when to come in, when to hit the downbeat, when to throw in a fill, when to stay on the ride cymbal or the hi-hat. If you can take in a live show, even better. Three weeks of listening carefully to drummers, and you'll have a much better idea how to approach this.

I start by using loops that are pretty basic (and just drums), then add cymbals by hand. Then layering loops to create the build-up on verse 2, etc.

You can drop your loops into the verse, chorus, etc. in a very rough way, to get the right loops sorted out, then clean up their entrances, breaks, etc. Crash cymbals hide a lot

If you start simple, you may find you develop a feel for a certain method or style, and build from there.

Thank you folks I will do all of the above and will report back with my progress... Cheers,

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

roymond wrote: However, this seems a little harsh, and is exactly the kind of thing that keeps people from pushing their musical abilities...(wouldn't want to suggest it to Elvis Costello, for instance):

5- If it happens that the music doesn't fit the lyrics neatly, alter the lyrics not the music.

See, now I read that as in change the delivery of the lyrics, like how you break up the syllables, etc. Not change the lyrics. But it does say "alter the lyrics". And I will say I do it all the time. In fact, I think it bothers Niv (more than he lets on) when I sing something he wrote and I change or take out words to flow better. But I'd never do it in a way that it changes the meaning of that line just to get a rhyme, etc.

I just stumbled across this.

No BLT, not at all. I understand that I'm a lyricist. I paint a picture but you put the picture in the frame and that sometimes takes a little work. A songwriter needs to be flexible.