The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Howdy guys,

Its been a loooonnnggg time since I was last around here. I used to songfight as an excercise to help me get ideas flowing, but now I'm a senior mechanical engineering student and have little time for that. But I do still find time for music (otherwise I'd go insane), and have formed a band with a couple of my friends and we just finished home recording an EP. We are really proud of our music, but lack money to actually get into a studio (paying gigs are hard to come by in College Station, Texas for indie bands). So this was our only solution. I want to make it sound good, but thats always been the trouble with my recordings. They come out demo-quality at best, and thats mostly to do with our limitations. If you'll indulge me:

Interface: Tascam US-122 (2 inputs, blah)
Computer: Inspiron Laptop (... yea)
Program: Cubase LE (what came with the Tascam)
+ multiple free plug ins from the thread in this forum (so great thank you guys so much for that)
Our recordings of course suffer a bit from this. I figured if anybody in the world knew how to make gold from this it would be SONGFIGHT! You guys surprise me to no end with how creative and professional you're stuff sounds, and on a limited budget, much like myself.
Here is where I ask for guidance. I need help mixing and mastering this 5-6 song EP so that we can feel proud of it when we're attempting to sell it for 5 bucks a pop.

Other fun facts, we are a three piece indie-college rock band (i.e. mountain goats, thermals, ted leo, stuff along those lines). I've yet to read a helpful guide on how to mix a three piece, everybody says put the bass and the drums down the center and then pan lead and rhythm guitar. Great... do I just plug everything down the middle then in our case??

Heres some examples of how things are coming so far.
Impressions of Myself:
http://www.box.net/shared/l4auauzgvm
Half Past Midnight:
http://www.box.net/shared/bu5so3f4rn

I'm currently uploading the Cubase folders of these two tracks with all the audio included (bounced every track with a nice click at the start for easy alignment if you don't have Cubase). If you're interested in helping, let me know. If you have any suggestions, those are great too. Anything and everything is greatly greatly appreciated (like you don't even know how much.... like.... immensly). Sorry for the long post, I've missed you guys songfight, if there's anybody who can help me, I'm betting its you guys.

tl;dr I'm mixing my band's EP and don't want it to sound like ass... help?

here's our myspace as well: http://www.myspace.com/almosthandsomecs

Here's a whole lot of subjective advice from a guy who just learned a lot about mixing in the last couple of months, but probably still doesn't know nearly everything:

Are the drums recorded on all one track? If not, you can pan those a little. Bass should be center, but it doesn't matter because the human ear can't really place bass. If there's only one guitar and it's the only lead instrument, then it should be centered, or, ideally, stereo-widened. You can accomplish this with a number of plugins or by playing the guitar part twice and panning each one hard in either direction.

Make sure all the instruments have relatively even volume envelopes (except, of course, for those instances where you want a noticeable volume change). Some light compression might be in order. Do your songs utilize vocal harmonies? That's another good opportunity for fun with panning. Try to use different effects on different instruments, or at least different settings.

If there's background noise and you can't cut it out completely, then leave it in and just make sure it's consistent throughout the song.

EQ very cautiously. VERY cautiously.

I read a tutorial online a few months ago that recommended that you start by mixing the drums solo, then add the bass, then the guitar, then vocals, and not add the next instrument until the mix sounds good on its own. Bear in mind, however, that some of your instruments need not necessarily sound good solo. That's why the other instruments are there; to provide support. To that end, you may occasionally want to cut the low-end out of the guitar, so it doesn't clash with your bass. It'll sound bad on its own, but it might sound better when included in the full mix.

Sometimes, tinkering can have counterintuitive effects. You might find, for instance, that you can make the bass guitar sound fuller and punchier by raising not the bass, but the treble on it. Same with the kick drum.

Have fun!

Cool stuff. The drums were actually recorded with two mics. One under the snare pointed at the kick (to bring more presence in the mix for the two most necessary drums) and then one overhead to capture the cymbals and full set. It comes out okay, just not much punch to the kick (but at least its discernible).
EQ-ing is something I've never really gotten a grasp on in any way. I just tinker with it while i listen to the instrument solo until I like it (normally just with bass and drums, guitars and vox usually sound okay without much EQ).

thats a lot of parentheses...

mr_lostman wrote: I used to songfight as an excercise to help me get ideas flowing, but now I'm a senior mechanical engineering student and have little time for that.

I can dig that. There is way too much drinking and public nudity to be done as a senior engineering student to worry about songwriting.

Generic wrote:Bass should be center, but it doesn't matter because the human ear can't really place bass.

Low frequencies it can't... bass recordings it can, because they're not made out of only low frequencies.

Now for my own comments:

- More compression. Grokking compression takes a while; read a few tutorials and experiment.
- The vocals will sound much more "radio ready" if you a) compress them; b) learn to sing. (b) can make a fair bit of (a) optional.
- Whether tracks sound good on their own doesn't matter, so don't bother EQing every track separately.
- Panning sounds fine the way you did it for now... but when you use stereo doubling, make sure the two tracks match each other better in timing.
- More compression.
- Tune your guitar.

Jast wrote: - More compression. Grokking compression takes a while; read a few tutorials and experiment.
- The vocals will sound much more "radio ready" if you a) compress them; b) learn to sing. (b) can make a fair bit of (a) optional.
- Whether tracks sound good on their own doesn't matter, so don't bother EQing every track separately.
- Panning sounds fine the way you did it for now... but when you use stereo doubling, make sure the two tracks match each other better in timing.
- More compression.
- Tune your guitar.

Ooooh YAY! More help! (You guys rock). Compression, I've been trying, I did a lot of compression on Half Past Midnight was concerned that maybe it killed the dynamics of it though. I can see that you probably listened to both tracks, so more compression it is. I do have a compressor on the vocals right now just to make it cut through some more, I'll try and work on singing better (I've always been more for the "feel" of a take over "technicality", but I know that can get old). We're big Pavement/Modest Mouse/Mountain Goats fans, so we're pretty used to sub-par vocal performance (now we just need something exciting musically to balance that out). Yay for not eq-ing every track on its own, pain in the ass. Thanks for the note on panning I was worried the mix would be too claustrophobic. I do double track the guitar on occassion, but i try not too much because of what you said, they don't always line up right.

In impressions I kept the raw accoustic guitar (we used it as a guide track) cause it brought some nice higher end trebly strumming to the guitar sound, but it gets buried for the most part and is only noticeable when it deviates from the timing (remove it?). Half Past Midnight is double tracked the whole way, with some delay on the right channel (lower volume), so as to add space to the recording (i.e. like a room). did I go about that a bad way?

... my guitar was tuned Maybe I strum too hard heh.

Thanks for all the pointers, though some were kinda harsh, but I didn't come here to get a handjob (thats poor wording on my part).

Here's a trick I use for getting the doubled guitar sound:

My guitar amp has two speakers and built-in stereo chorus, so it's pretty easy for me to slap a microphone in front of each speaker, turn on a subtle chorus effect, and record each mic to its own track. Tweak the EQs to be a little different, and BAM! doubled guitar.

If your amp has only one speaker, you'll have to work a little more studio magic. Place one mic right in front of the speaker cone, and offset the second one a little (I usually go to the side and in back of the first one). Once again, record each mic to its own track, and play with some subtle effects in your recording software. I think the "trial and error" method will be your friend here.

P.S. - I like the tracks - looking forward to hearing more "professional" recordings.

P.P.S - You think you're busy now? Wait until you're an actual engineer!

'Nother song. Using some of your suggestions, mostly compression on nearly evrything. I think the kick drum comes through a bit more on this one, I'm really happy how its sounding. This ones a bit different cause I used my accoustic-electric instead of my electric and plugged it straight in. Some of the vocal parts are gonna need to be redone (the opening of the last chorus mainly). Did I overdo the reverb on this one (its still subtle, but the guitar seems a bit obtrusive in parts).

Goodbye:
http://www.box.net/shared/qr7e3i9l52

Thoughts?

I really like that idea for double tracking guitars. I think I'm gonna try that soon seeing as I have a Princeton Chorus, seems like its tailor made for this. Now what mics to use, I only have the one SM 57, could the imitation audiotechnica SM58 fill the role (probably my only option here). This is really helpful guys so thank you. I don't know if my mixes are going to improve by much, but I'm starting to feel like maybe I can release this and not be too embarrassed to hand it out at shows.

mr_lostman wrote:I really like that idea for double tracking guitars. I think I'm gonna try that soon seeing as I have a Princeton Chorus, seems like its tailor made for this. Now what mics to use, I only have the one SM 57, could the imitation audiotechnica SM58 fill the role (probably my only option here). This is really helpful guys so thank you. I don't know if my mixes are going to improve by much, but I'm starting to feel like maybe I can release this and not be too embarrassed to hand it out at shows.

Back in the day, I got my stereo guitar track from a single take, and I always got a nasty, phasey sound - if you have the patience to record a second guitar playing essentially the same thing, I'd recommend that. BTW, I'm still in the process of getting a more polished sound as well, so take any advice I hand out with a grain of salt.

Quick tips without reading most of this thread:

1. double track your guitars and pan them. Use different guitars/amps/tones/mics etc for each and make them two different performances.
2. Try putting a kick mic in front of the kick where it sounds good and a condenser high over the snare for your overhead mic. I usually get a good sound this way. Compress until the snare stands out and you can get a good sound.
3. Take advantage of your surroundings. In college you have a lot of buildings you may be able to exploit for recording. See if you can track the drums in a large classroom or a parking garage. Don't go for radio friendly, go for interesting and unique vibe.

Ken

Thickeners:

- Record the same part with two different guitars, same amp, same mic. Pan one left, the other right.

- Do it once open, do it again transposed, capo 5. This works especially well for acoustic stuff.

- A punk band once taught me: do the guitar take, then do it again, playing the chord on the 1 only and letting it ring. They would do the same guitar part twice, panned left and right, and then do these "ring outs", panned right in the middle, lower in the mix. Really filled out the sound.

I would recommend against multi-micing the same amp for the same take, unless the mics are close miced. This is the sort of thing that sounds huge in isolation, but unless you are very, very careful, will never fit in the mix due to phase issues. Remember the 3:1 rule here.

irwin wrote:Thickeners:

- Record the same part with two different guitars, same amp, same mic. Pan one left, the other right.

- Do it once open, do it again transposed, capo 5. This works especially well for acoustic stuff.

- A punk band once taught me: do the guitar take, then do it again, playing the chord on the 1 only and letting it ring. They would do the same guitar part twice, panned left and right, and then do these "ring outs", panned right in the middle, lower in the mix. Really filled out the sound.

I would recommend against multi-micing the same amp for the same take, unless the mics are close miced. This is the sort of thing that sounds huge in isolation, but unless you are very, very careful, will never fit in the mix due to phase issues. Remember the 3:1 rule here.

This sounds brilliant (though it's still early and I'm hungover ). Can't wait to give 'em a try.

For no-brainer quickie oomph, in mastering (when you're fiddling with a mixed-down stereo track of the song), toss a limiter and a stereo space enhancer in the chain. Maybe.

Yo songfight,

Thanks for all your input guys. We just had our EP release show and it went really well. Gave out something like 30 of our EPs but upon listening I've found that I never really figured out the whole "mastering" thing. Don't get me wrong, it sounds pretty decent as is. I'm really very proud of our final product here, I'm just really curious as to how these mixes could be improved with a proper mastering session. I still have no clue how mastering works and the few attempts I've made at it have been frustrating and fruitless. So, one last plea to my heroes here at SF:

Would anyone be willing to do some light mastering for our EP?
Here's a link to our EP in its entirety.
http://www.yousendit.com/download/RmNCS ... SlJFQlE9PQ

All of the mp3's are in there. If you're interested in trying your hand at mastering someone else's tracks I'd be IMMENSELY grateful. My email if you want to get in touch with me is JLHoelscher@gmail.com

Even if you don't want to do any mastering but are interested in how the EP turned out, go ahead and download it at the link as well. You guys as a community have been a great help to me in my growth as a songwriter and an "audio engineer". This is my very small way of saying thank you for any and all help you've given me in the past. Hope you enjoy it and keep on rocking SF.

let me know if you're interested or can offer some helpful pointers.