The Song Fight Bulletin Board

I've got a Lexicon Lambda, and it's got four inputs - two XLRs and two 1/4" jacks. What I can do on most of the DAWs I've used is to separate the left and right outputs into separate channels. So I can theoretically record one take with two microphones, and have one mic write to one file, while the other writes to another file.

This is pretty useful. What I'd like to do, if it's possible, is to separate the mics from the instruments. In other words, I'd like to be able to plug my piano in (using two cords for stereo input) and plug a microphone in, record myself playing and singing at the same time, and have the piano and voice record to different tracks.

Does anyone know if this is possible?

I don't have one of these, but from the Lambda knowledgebase page, it doesn't look like it.

How many inputs can I record at the same time with the Lambda?
You can record 2 discrete channels of audio with the Lambda. All 4 of the Lambda’s inputs can be mixed down onto the 2 channels to be recorded.

http://www.lexiconpro.com/knowledgebase ... &topic=172

Aw, nerts. Maybe I'll shove both piano inputs into one channel and do the mic in the other, then.

Why not do it like everyone else and record the piano and vox in separate takes?

Or you could get really ingenious and record the keyboard as a MIDI track using a VSTi plugin and any old synthesized sound, and then after recording, run the MIDI track through your regular keyboard and record its output to an audio track to get your preferred sound. But Mark's idea sounds easier.

Generic wrote:Aw, nerts. Maybe I'll shove both piano inputs into one channel and do the mic in the other, then.

In your situation trying to record piano and vox at once, this seems like your best method. Just run the piano mono or left and right into one and the vocal mic on the other.
Then at this point you can do several things:

1. Export just the piano track as a stereo track, then bring it back to your project as a stereo track.

2. Copy the mono piano track to another track to pan the two piano tracks out left and right with slight different FX to each.

3. Copy the mono piano track to another track to pan the two piano tracks out left and right, but reverse phase on one of the tracks and move it slightly or add a chorus effect to the reverse phase track, then set the levels to match up.

4. Stop making things harder than they need to be and do what Mark said and 99.9999% of the rest of the world and parts of Canada does and do one at a time.

Why are you bent on playing and singing at once?

Q. You are practicing for live gigs and want to hear how you do?
A. Then quality doesn't matter. Just do a mono piano track and your vox.

Q. You feel you will be more realistic singing while playing the piano?
A. So, record the piano and listen back to the piano while pretending to play the piano while recording the vocal track.


That's all I have to say about tHAaaAT. ~Forest Gump

I'm liking AJ's suggestion the more I think about it... except w/o the vst part, that is. Just record the MIDI data. The keyboard's still putting out sound, right? So the bleed through into the vocal mike's still sweetly there on the vocal pass, and then on the second pass with the MIDI running the keyboard only onto another stereo track and shazam. Live and memorex.

I oughtta gotta try that myself.

I agree with AJOwens as well. Use the midi. If not, go mono - one for vox, one for keys. I personally would avoid all the mono to stereo stuff BLT recommends. If not, track piano and voice separately. Next interface you buy should have 4 individual inputs. I guess the mixer function on the Lambda would have some kind of use, maybe on a drum kit or a live recording where you blend board and room mics. I dunno.

Ken

I don't know anything about midi. I really should learn this stuff. I guess I just haven't had a reason to.

By the way, I did the reverse phase thing with my harmonica on this weeks Double Take. I needed to fatten it up and I couldn't play it exact twice, so I tried a few things until I found one my ears liked. Not saying it's the right way, but it worked pretty good. I'm new to the harp, so I need to learn some recording tricks and FX.

My concern is that if you reverse the phase and then pan, when you sum back to mono the tracks should cancel each other out. That doesn't seem like a good plan to me.

Well, there has to be some delay between the tracks. I used a chorus effect on the reverse phase track. Like I said, it sounds pretty good and fattened the harmonica up like I wanted, but I'm sure there are better ways.

You don't even have to phase-invert one track, just shift it over about 5-20 ms from the other. Instant fake stereo!

ken wrote:I guess the mixer function on the Lambda would have some kind of use, maybe on a drum kit or a live recording where you blend board and room mics. I dunno.

Ken

Yeah, it's good for finding the balance between monitoring input and monitoring playback. When I'm not actively recording, it's also decent as a "soft" volume knob, for fine tuning. Other than that, though, the Lambda is absolutely not a mixer, nor is it meant to be. I was just trying to figure out if what I was trying to do was possible.

AJ's MIDI idea is ingenious, but is there a way to then convert that MIDI data back into my piano's native tone? I haven't yet found a VSTi that comes even close. At least, not one in my budget.

The idea is to record in two passes. In the first pass, you record the mic to an audio input, and you record your keyboard to a MIDI input. As Rabid Garfunkel pointed out, you don't even need a VSTi. You can just monitor what you're playing by sending the keyboard audio output to an amp or your headphones.

In the second pass, you play the MIDI back into your keyboard (using the preferred sound from your keyboard), and record the keyboard audio outputs to another track.

It's still two passes, but you do get to record a simultaneous vocal and keyboard performance, if this is important for some reason.

AJOwens wrote:The idea is to record in two passes. In the first pass, you record the mic to an audio input, and you record your keyboard to a MIDI input. As Rabid Garfunkel pointed out, you don't even need a VSTi. You can just monitor what you're playing by sending the keyboard audio output to an amp or your headphones.

In the second pass, you play the MIDI back into your keyboard (using the preferred sound from your keyboard), and record the keyboard audio outputs to another track.

It's still two passes, but you do get to record a simultaneous vocal and keyboard performance, if this is important for some reason.

So if I'm understanding you right, the second pass is pretty much completely automated, right?

That's right. Eessentially in pass 1 you record your performance -- the keys you pressed, the durations, the velocities -- as MIDI codes. On the second pass, you just play this information back to the keyboard, and sit back and listen.

This is assuming that your recording software can record MIDI tracks. I'm not familar with Adobe Audition, so I'm not sure.

Märk wrote:You don't even have to phase-invert one track, just shift it over about 5-20 ms from the other. Instant fake stereo!

I use that technique. But what exactly makes stereo STEREO? I know what I'm after, but I have never really heard anything that made me understand what true stereo is and how it's made. Left/Right, yest I know that. But there's more to it.

AJOwens wrote: This is assuming that your recording software can record MIDI tracks. I'm not familar with Adobe Audition, so I'm not sure.

Oh, I switched to Cubase LE4 at the beginning of the year, so what you're saying is definitely possible. I'll give it a shot tomorrow.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

Märk wrote:You don't even have to phase-invert one track, just shift it over about 5-20 ms from the other. Instant fake stereo!

I use that technique. But what exactly makes stereo STEREO? I know what I'm after, but I have never really heard anything that made me understand what true stereo is and how it's made. Left/Right, yest I know that. But there's more to it.

True stereo is recording with two mics. That's it. The sound waves hit one mic a millisecond before the other, that's stereo.

Regarding stereo, there's also level to consider. A sound panned "hard left" has no level in the right ear; as the right-ear level comes up more and more, the sound moves closer to centre, and I suppose the sound delay from one ear to the other should get slightly shorter, until at centre the signals arrive at the same time and the same level.

I'd bet reverberation has some effect on stereo perception as well. One thing I notice about the default settings on the Reason Adapted piano is that the reverb seems to be coming from a different place in the stereo field.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

Märk wrote:You don't even have to phase-invert one track, just shift it over about 5-20 ms from the other. Instant fake stereo!

I use that technique. But what exactly makes stereo STEREO? I know what I'm after, but I have never really heard anything that made me understand what true stereo is and how it's made. Left/Right, yest I know that. But there's more to it.

Are you familiar with how sound waves work? It's a difficult concept to encapsulate in writing with no diagrams or visual aids, but the basics are this: What you perceive as "Sound" is actually patterns of high-pressure and low-pressure air hitting your eardrums. This means that, physically, each sound wave has a certain point at which it's actively hitting your ears, and a certain point at which it's "at rest," so to speak. There are called phases, and they each happen thousands and thousands of times per second, but they're there.

When you hear a sound, you're hearing it from two points, because your ears are in two different locations. Stereo-widening a track usually involves doubling a mono track, nudging the new track SLIGHTLY later in the mix (like, 1-10ms), and the people who talk about phase-inverting do that because it simulates the effect of the sound source hitting your different ears at different phases. Ken is right, though, in that two identical sounds played at the same time will cancel each other out if one is phase-inverted. Or, if not cancel out completely, at least make each other sound weird. Supposedly it can pay off, but I've yet to make it work in practice.

My piano has stereo outs, so I just use those, and to widen my guitar sound, I play the same part twice.