Nur Ein VIII Round Four "Down to Under"

[Tubba Gutz]

That is one of the best "how I got into black metal" stories I've heard! That guy is really cool. I agree, Inquisition is - dare I say - catchy! Along the same lines, have heard Aosoth? I'm completely obsessed with them. Video possibly NSFW? I don't really know.

[Caravan Ray]

Hobbit Land

P.S.: Caravan Ray, just so my subtle jab isn't just mistaken for a stereotypically American ignorance of geography, the point of all of that was to imply that you are a kiwi, insultingly. I am fully aware that you're actually a banana-bender.

Are you going to explain what this little selection of nut job websites has to do me, or Queensland ...or anything?


I think you are confusing "subtle jab" , with " completely irrelevant nonsense"


Come on - do better.


I am here to help.

[Caravan Ray]

Metal sucks. And this week proved it.

I really want to keep on liking you, because I think you're great.

thank you

I could go into depth with this one but "Metal" ( maybe not as all of your narrow-minded view of what metal is) is a way of life for me and the Mister... we live our lives around it now days and we have never been happier or more content. Music itself is more then a thing that we love, it's almost like our third spouse and our marriage is better then most..

that all sound's cool

Metal does not suck,

My definition of it does.

it's the idea that metal is more about sticking your balls out there and demanding to be heard then the sudo-fake metal cheesiness you all were piling on this week. There are millions of bands in this genre besides the 20 that were referenced this week. In fact dude, you're "metal" a lot and don't even realize it because you never give a shit and I like that about you, you are original and really demand attention hence my comparison of you to one of my all time favorite bands "The Dammed" who couldn't technically be defined as punk or metal. I didn't hate your song, or any song, you guys are all just trying to do what you think metal is and some of you just took that too literal. There is so much music in the world defined as metal, and some of it is amazing. The point is, you could have all went off and been insane, but if the attitude was correct behind it then the song would have been metal in principle. I am explaining this all to you because in the last year my ideas on this genre of music have changed almost completely. I too have gone from being closed-minded and hating things that I didn't understand, to being an intense fan. Eric and I attend shows weekly, (31 shows this year so far) some are local bands where 5 people attend the show and some are touring acts that 200-10000 other people are in the room. I've heard things that were so intense in nature they brought me to tears, and I have heard things that I just didn't get, I have also heard things that have changed my life forever. It's all about respect, and I have an immense amount of respect for these artists some of which I am lucky to call my friends and I have the same amount for all of you.

Yeah. Whatever. "Metal" to me means spotty faced liitle gits with no social skills and poor personal hygiene. That is why my song was about a poor , hopeless littles twat who can't get a girlfriend so he has visit a prostitute.

This is what "metal" means in my world.

And this is the interpretation i prefer to live with.

[Tubba Gutz]

I met my girlfriend and successfully wooed her while in a grindcore band named Piss Cops and Fart Nazis. Stereotype SHATTERED!!

[Caravan Ray]

The Tydon Docks - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWUBHA2DBDA

Very close on your sample..well done. I like that, but I would have preferred Black Dog.


I used to love Led Zep when I was younger...but now not much so. Black Dog, Immigrant Song and Rock and Roll however - remain 3 of the greatest songs ever written

[Caravan Ray]

I met my girlfriend and successfully wooed her while in a grindcore band named Piss Cops and Fart Nazis. Stereotype SHATTERED!!

That's weird.

I also met your girlfriend and successfully wooed her while in a grindcore band named Piss Cops and Fart Nazis.

She said she preferred me.

[frankie big face]

ValleyOfSteelstress said "The point is, you could have all went off and been insane, but if the attitude was correct behind it then the song would have been metal in principle."

All due respect, I don't think this is evident from the pages and pages of discussion that preceded the posting of the songs. What you are describing as "metal" attitude is traditionally referred to as "punk" by a lot of (most) people. This is the problem with this challenge. You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge. And then you have to have at least a little restraint when it comes to showing your biases in a multi-page discussion on the boards.

Just my opinion. And since I won the round, I probably shouldn't be complaining (I'm not really---just observing out loud).

[Tubba Gutz]

I met my girlfriend and successfully wooed her while in a grindcore band named Piss Cops and Fart Nazis. Stereotype SHATTERED!!

That's weird.

I also met your girlfriend and successfully wooed her while in a grindcore band named Piss Cops and Fart Nazis.

She said she preferred me.

So YOU'RE the one that took all the brilliant, highly-marketable ideas from Piss Cops and hit the big time while the real band had to fight for scraps in the gutter! I will have my revenge.

[BenKrieger]

Black Dog, Immigrant Song and Rock and Roll however - remain 3 of the greatest songs ever written

"When the Levee Breaks" is better.

[Eric Y.]

You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge. And then you have to have at least a little restraint when it comes to showing your biases in a multi-page discussion on the boards.

Wrong. We can; we don't have to; and we don't have to.

The entire purpose for having a panel of judges (rather than, say, a single judge) is to have a difference in opinions.

And I don't know why so much emphasis is being placed on the discussions of what "metal" means. It was merely a discussion, simply a sharing of thoughts and ideas -- I don't belive any sort of prescription or proscription pertaining to the challenge was ever stated or implied.

[Eric Y.]

"Metal" is a way of life for me

...

It's all about respect, and I have an immense amount of respect for these artists some of which I am lucky to call my friends and I have the same amount for all of you.

Yeah. Whatever. "Metal" to me means spotty faced liitle gits with no social skills and poor personal hygiene. That is why my song was about a poor , hopeless littles twat who can't get a girlfriend so he has visit a prostitute.

This is what "metal" means in my world.

And this is the interpretation i prefer to live with.

Your definition of the word "respect" is as idiotic as your narrow-minded view of everything else, evidently.

[WreckdoMelle]

You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge. And then you have to have at least a little restraint when it comes to showing your biases in a multi-page discussion on the boards.

Wrong. We can; we don't have to; and we don't have to.

What was the point of having this as the challenge? Clearly this word as criteria didn't mean shit? Obviously some of the judges totally hate metal music or don't know/don't care what that label means. Like Eric Y. and Valley of Steelstress, King Colon and I take metal very seriously. I have played guitar in bands that were undeniably metal, with tunes that blow the doors off any song that was presented this challenge, including our own. We too have definite ideas on what metal is and were disappointed with the genre bias that was totally evident as soon as the challenge was unveiled.

I felt our song was metal. Was that the problem? Too much metal for hater judges? Then people were saying we didn't bring enough metal for what they expected from us. Not WreckdoMetal enuff? Either way we're out, but dang! I just felt this challenge was unnecessarily contentious from the get-go.

As far as the metalness of the songs that made it, all's I'm going to say is try playing any of the top 5 songs at a metal show in San Antonio and they will cut off your head, nail it to the Alamo and piss on it (Carlo Bruno Jr. might scrape by with a flesh wound). Only Paco truly satisfied my need for balls-out, over the top, heavy. Well done sir!

So I conclude that you have thrown out this word 'metal' and unless someone was singing about gold and copper, banging on glockenspiels and playing pussy rock, they didn't meet the challenge.

[frankie big face]

You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge. And then you have to have at least a little restraint when it comes to showing your biases in a multi-page discussion on the boards.

Wrong. We can; we don't have to; and we don't have to.

The entire purpose for having a panel of judges (rather than, say, a single judge) is to have a difference in opinions.

Yes, about the songs not about the challenge. But since you only speak in absolutes and you appear to be a complete narcissist, I am not surprised by your bullshit response.

EDIT: Also ,what WreckdoMelle said.

[j$]

You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge.....

Wrong. We can; we don't have to; and we don't have to. The entire purpose for having a panel of judges (rather than, say, a single judge) is to have a difference in opinions ....

Absolutely.

But don't take from that we don't sweat the challenges, before and after they're posted.

In our swanky luxury pad on the top of Mount Bastard (it's in Delaware), we all make suggestions as to challenges. We want them to be interesting, challenging and if they're too prescriptive or too vague. We consider whether we are giving unfair advantage to a particular competitor (Metal round: we worried that it wouldn't be much of a challenge for Wreckdom - see how that turned out ) We consider whether people's circumstances might make it impossible for them to compete to the best of their abilities. (Collab round: changed the title from "your mum" - which I wanted because it appealed to my sense of humour, to 'collaboration with somebody's mom' so as not alienate those who might have lost a parent or who didn't get on with their own families). We consider whether it is the right time for a challenge (try to mix up the musical / non-musical challenges; also as with "Falsetto" we moved it from round zero to round five because we didn't want to sit through 20-odd strained falsettos. now we only have to put up with 8 or 9).

After the songs are posted, we discuss individual songs where one judge needs clarification of whether the challenge was met - example:round zero - did Balance Lost's gun-cock sound meet the challenge of "sound of gunfire" - also, same round: was Tydon Docks being clever and interesting in saying "bang bang" or had he failed to meet the challenge?)

And then, as good human beings, we go back, listen again and make our score decisions. We do not judge each other's scores, relying on 6 different personalities / tastes to balance out to somewhere still subjective but closer to the truth.

So, everybody, feel free to hate us for our opinions and tastes, but don't imply we aren't taking our roles seriously. We take it too seriously, if anything.

You probably didn't want to read all that. Right, back onto the ornithopter and off to Mount Bastard, double-quick.

[j$]

What was the point of having this as the challenge? Clearly this word as criteria didn't mean shit? Obviously some of the judges totally hate metal music or don't know/don't care what that label means. Like Eric Y. and Valley of Steelstress, King Colon and I take metal very seriously. I have played guitar in bands that were undeniably metal, with tunes that blow the doors off any song that was presented this challenge, including our own. We too have definite ideas on what metal is and were disappointed with the genre bias that was totally evident as soon as the challenge was unveiled.

I felt our song was metal. Was that the problem? Too much metal for hater judges? Then people were saying we didn't bring enough metal for what they expected from us. Not WreckdoMetal enuff? Either way we're out, but dang! I just felt this challenge was unnecessarily contentious from the get-go.

As far as the metalness of the songs that made it, all's I'm going to say is try playing any of the top 5 songs at a metal show in San Antonio and they will cut off your head, nail it to the Alamo and piss on it (Carlo Bruno Jr. might scrape by with a flesh wound). Only Paco truly satisfied my need for balls-out, over the top, heavy. Well done sir!

So I conclude that you have thrown out this word 'metal' and unless someone was singing about gold and copper, banging on glockenspiels and playing pussy rock, they didn't meet the challenge.

I will say again: Everyone met the challenge in this round. In various ways. So far no-one has been eliminated for not meeting the challenge.

So if your song did not perform as well as you expected, competitors, rest assured you did not get eliminated because you failed to meet the challenge. You might possibly want to consider what other reasons for your elimination from a song-writing contest there could be before making such unsubstantiated claims.

[Eric Y.]

You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge. And then you have to have at least a little restraint when it comes to showing your biases in a multi-page discussion on the boards.

Wrong. We can; we don't have to; and we don't have to.

The entire purpose for having a panel of judges (rather than, say, a single judge) is to have a difference in opinions.

Yes, about the songs not about the challenge. But since you only speak in absolutes and you appear to be a complete narcissist, I am not surprised by your bullshit response.

Frankie, I really want to like you. You seem like such a nice person most of the time, including the two times I met you in person. I don't know why you sometimes say things like this -- other than perhaps that you really seem to take this competition stuff (and all the little details that go along with it) far too seriously, when it's supposed to be fun.

I was only speaking in absolute terms to contradict what you said -- indicating to us judges what we "can't" do, and what we "have" to do. That's the only "bullshit" in my opinion: that there are rules about how a judge can feel about something, or how a judge might choose to judge.

Can you explain what the word "narcissistic" means to you, and how it applies to anything I've said here?

[Manhattan Glutton]

Hey j$, I think it's really cool that you're bringing some transparency to the process (not that it actually needed it, because Nur Ein!). It might be really interesting if, once the round or competition is over, we could see a history of the judges back-and-forth between themselves. Like if you had a locked-down forum for judge discussions that opened up later or something. Just a thought.

[j$]

I'd have no problem with that, once it's all over. happy to run it past everyone. Obviously have to edit out the bits where we're just casually talking about cheese for four hours

[roymond]

ValleyOfSteelstress said "The point is, you could have all went off and been insane, but if the attitude was correct behind it then the song would have been metal in principle."

All due respect, I don't think this is evident from the pages and pages of discussion that preceded the posting of the songs. What you are describing as "metal" attitude is traditionally referred to as "punk" by a lot of (most) people. This is the problem with this challenge. You can't have six judges with six completely different interpretations or expectations where the challenge is concerned. You have to have some kind of consensus before you post the challenge. And then you have to have at least a little restraint when it comes to showing your biases in a multi-page discussion on the boards.

Just my opinion. And since I won the round, I probably shouldn't be complaining (I'm not really---just observing out loud).

The underlying point of challenges is to provoke great music making. It's not to see who can navigate an obstacle course with canon balls banded to their ankles (all decent arguments benefit from at least one Kurt Vonnegut reference). If it's about checking boxes, then I'm in the wrong business. As j$ so eloquently stated, there is a good deal of discussion about challenges and song titles and their timing within rounds. Each challenge has a different level of subjectivity built in. "Collaborate with someone’s mom" is decidedly very much different than "metal".

For this round a word was presented: metal. Not heavy metal. Not metal, the music genre. To elevate or denigrate entries based on one's devotion to a way of life, or self-proclaimed expertise about what metal means to the world, or the importance of avoiding bottom feeders is ... missing the point. There were good songs. There were bad songs. We don't always agree. That's what makes life bearable.

[WreckdoMelle]

So if your song did not perform as well as you expected, competitors, rest assured you did not get eliminated because you failed to meet the challenge. You might possibly want to consider what other reasons for your elimination from a song-writing contest there could be before making such unsubstantiated claims.

Thank you for clarifying y'all's judging processes atop Mount Bastard (in Delaware).

I'm pretty aware that we might just be submitting a song that is not going to be considered good or as good as the competition. We have submitted songs that I thought could've been better, and did surprisingly well. And there's some real stinkers in the WreckdoM anthology too.

I know that's always going to be a possibility, and part of the thrill and terror and excitement of doing Songfight and especially Nur Ein.

This challenge just didn't sit right with me, and I had to put in my two cents.

[Eric Y.]

I have played guitar in bands that were undeniably metal, with tunes that blow the doors off any song that was presented this challenge, including our own.

I think this statement completely hit the nail on the head.

If you had entered a different song -- one that would "blow the doors off" the one you did enter -- there's a good chance you wouldn't have been eliminated.

I hate that it has to be stated this bluntly, but the results of each round of this competition represent the average of how much six people like each of your songs. Not everyone thought your song was one of the worst four, and not everyone thought Frankie's song was the best. But on average, the panel enjoyed his song the most, and on average, the panel enjoyed eight other songs more than yours.

(All of you) needn't get so caught up in the minutiae of it all; if you are eliminated it's because not enough of the judges liked your song more than the other songs. If you win, it's because most of the judges liked your song, more than most of the other songs. It is seriously as simple as that.

[Manhattan Glutton]

represent the average of how much six people like each of your songs.

Not quite "average", but I suppose close enough. Maybe that's something else we can get changed and you all rank all the songs 0 to 10.

Oh and while we're at it, release the next title on Sunday night.