The Song Fight Bulletin Board

What other songwriter forums/communities do you keep up with? What tools do you use when you are developing a worksheet? What thoughts go thru your head when determining your melodic structure - how do you determine your harmonic structure? When is a good time to build a bridge?

Place to sharpen your toolkit and share tips and quips!

This would go in the Help and How To forum. Take a few minutes to orient yourself!

there is a great thread going on coursera right now talking about stable and unstable tones in relationship to the chords they are under and the part of the story it is trying to paint. Excellent response from one William Knox

Hi again Tom.

Chords certainly have stability and instability, and Pat has touched on how V strongly wants to 'resolve' to I, and there's their buddy IV which wants to play with the other two. V and IV resolve to I in their own way, and indeed move to each other in interesting ways. I. V, and IV are the foundation chords, and you can go from there. Chords even more than melody want to go or stay somewhere, and every song is a Hobbit journey away from, and back home by way of its melody and chords. Check out the concept of 'VOICE LEADING.' It is my understanding that the actual music drives most of the stability or instability in a song more so than the lyrics. Music is more primitive, more fundamental, literally wanting us to move i.e. dance, and words came later; but they are still important, obviously.

"Prosody' is fundamentally about music, and Pat has interestingly extrapolated the concept to lyrics, no doubt arising out of his early involvement with poetry. In terms of brain science, prosody is the capacity of the right side of the brain especially to hear the patterns of sound. Language is a left brain function predominantly. The juxtaposition of music with words brings the left and right brain abilities together nicely.

Chords have relationships with each other, and for example share notes which lets you 'substitute' for variety, or have a tension inherent to them which is resolved by MOVING (Pat's key idea of what instability is all about) to another chord. You build up patterns of tension=interest in your chord progressions, like hunger of various kinds leading you to hunt for food, sex etc, and then resolve the tension by a fulfilling act of one kind or another - returning to the tonic - not necessarily a Gin and Tonic.

It's important to be curious about music, and indeed life, and not just learn by rote; but still you have to lay some ground work to give you the building blocks to be curious about in the first place. Thus one copies at the outset, then creates.

You sound really curious, and that's a good quality to have.

William Knox

AJOwens wrote:This would go in the Help and How To forum. Take a few minutes to orient yourself!

It doesn't look like people post there that often - no posts for over two weeks.

Another post by William Knox - him killin it with the knowledge bombas


Hi Tom, you have sure generated some good discussion. While I can't really help here are a couple of ideas.

It is my theory that any melody we generate will be influenced by the sort of music we usually listen to. So have a look at chord progressions in that genre of music.

It takes a rich knowledge of music harmony to match melody and chords. I always start with a chord progression and then put a melody on top of that; that's a sure easier way.

What the guys are saying above is useful, and you can see what sort of chords your melody fits best (i.e. that most of the notes that are in those chords match most of your melody notes), but given how many chords there are it's a long way around, although you might invent some new progressions in the process. But a lot of other folks have already invented the roundest wheels so best go with that as a beginner.

It's usually informative to take a look at 2-chord children's songs and see how how the melodies match the chords - usually just chords I and V, e.g. C and G in the key of C, or G and D in the key of G, A and E in the key of A, etc. Move up from there. The important notes in a melody with usually be in the chord for that bar or phrase, and the other notes "passing notes."

I substituted a D7 chord with a Dm in my Week 6 assignment in an attempt to destabilise it, and I think it worked, along with the form stuff Pat is talking about. I just played a few likely chords on my guitar to see what might fit. Learn about how chords are built up, e.g. 1,3,5, for a major, 1,flat 3, 5 for a minor,1,3,5, flat7 for a dominant 7th. You might already know that; if not get to know it. Once I discovered that I, IV and V are major chords in the scale, and II,III and VI are minor that opened my vision pretty much for solving part of the problem you have.

Your principle chords in the key of A are A major, D major, E major, and B minor, Csharp minor, and Fsharp minor. And add flat7s for additional functionality, etc.

I remember doing arrangement for music on my lap steel when I was a kid. With a straight bar you are limited for chordal harmony under your melody note on that instrument. While I didn't understand chordal harmony theoretically then I just explored using the notes from the piano arrangement, both treble and bass clef, to see what notes worked. You are inadvertently doing something similar. My process now is getting familiar with the common chord progressions. You may or may not like the Beatles, but I will say their chord progressions are a step up from Rock and Roll, and a good starting point to expand your chord progression vocabulary.

Hang in there.

William Knox

darricklucas wrote:

AJOwens wrote:This would go in the Help and How To forum. Take a few minutes to orient yourself!

It doesn't look like people post there that often - no posts for over two weeks.

God, I already hate you just for saying that. Fuck off.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

darricklucas wrote:

AJOwens wrote:This would go in the Help and How To forum. Take a few minutes to orient yourself!

It doesn't look like people post there that often - no posts for over two weeks.

God, I already hate you just for saying that. Fuck off.

I'm just saying if I wanted to talk to a wall I would write something in notepad and drop it directly in the trash

By the way if you make your way to coursera.oharegee you can sign up for Pat Pattison's 6 week songwriting course for free! Runs once every 12 weeks and has been taken by over a quarter million eager young poets and storytellers. It's like total amaze balls.

darricklucas wrote:I'm just saying if I wanted to talk to a wall I would write something in notepad and drop it directly in the trash

I don't post new threads everywhere, but I read new threads everywhere.

darricklucas wrote:By the way if you make your way to coursera.oharegee you can sign up for Pat Pattison's 6 week songwriting course for free! Runs once every 12 weeks and has been taken by over a quarter million eager young poets and storytellers. It's like total amaze balls.

You're starting to smell like a spammer, Darrick.

I'm moving this to Help and How To.

People read threads from every forum on these boards. It's not like 4chan or Reddit.

JB

jb wrote:

darricklucas wrote:By the way if you make your way to coursera.oharegee you can sign up for Pat Pattison's 6 week songwriting course for free! Runs once every 12 weeks and has been taken by over a quarter million eager young poets and storytellers. It's like total amaze balls.

You're starting to smell like a spammer, Darrick.

I'm moving this to Help and How To.

People read threads from every forum on these boards. It's not like 4chan or Reddit.

JB

it just looks like a place of minimal activity so I was not inclined to start a conversation there, which is understandable.

I'm definitely not a spammer - I am an active member of the songwriting community and am trying to start some conversation about the topic while sharing some of the better tools and resources I have found out there.

darricklucas wrote:it just looks like a place of minimal activity so I was not inclined to start a conversation there, which is understandable. I'm definitely not a spammer - I am an active member of the songwriting community and am trying to start some conversation about the topic while sharing some of the better tools and resources I have found out there.

I disagree-- the proper forum is the proper forum. Who knows, your post could spark a long thread.

We're happy to have you here, but it's important to be an active member of THIS community, not just the "songwriting" community. You may find it tough here at Song Fight-- one of our mottos is "It ain't song LOVE".

Fill out your user profile so we know something about you. Post in the "Introductions" thread. Participate in a Song Fight. Post some spare lyrics for people to use in their next fight. (You do know that this board is the conversation wing of http://songfight.org right?)

JB

jb wrote:Participate in a Song Fight. . (You do know that this board is the conversation wing of http://songfight.org right?)

These things I see you've already done/are aware of. Like the flute on your track. Your voice reminds me of Dudley Klute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Klute

JB

jb wrote:

darricklucas wrote:it just looks like a place of minimal activity so I was not inclined to start a conversation there, which is understandable. I'm definitely not a spammer - I am an active member of the songwriting community and am trying to start some conversation about the topic while sharing some of the better tools and resources I have found out there.

I disagree-- the proper forum is the proper forum. Who knows, your post could spark a long thread.

We're happy to have you here, but it's important to be an active member of THIS community, not just the "songwriting" community. You may find it tough here at Song Fight-- one of our mottos is "It ain't song LOVE".

Fill out your user profile so we know something about you. Post in the "Introductions" thread. Participate in a Song Fight. Post some spare lyrics for people to use in their next fight. (You do know that this board is the conversation wing of songfight right?)

JB

Yeah man I submitted to this weeks fight. I am spelunking around to see if investing my time in this community will be fruitful. Tbh the two driving forces here are to build my song portfolio and to participate in some songfights with my good friend and father of my nephew, Jim Tyrrell.

jb wrote:

jb wrote:Participate in a Song Fight. . (You do know that this board is the conversation wing of songfight right?)

These things I see you've already done/are aware of. Like the flute on your track. Your voice reminds me of Dudley Klute

JB

Thanks your the compliment. I am listening to some of his stuff with the three terrors now - especially like their version of the days of wine and roses

Tbh I have never written a song in the style of this week's number. I've spent the last few years studying everything I could about music, songwriting and popular culture and am just now at a point where I can take all this information and turn it into an effective creative process.

When do they post new titles? - the last song I wrote was melancholy because my life was in a melancholy place - now basking I the glow of my new song child I feel considerably more upbeat and assume whatever gets written to reflect that


Unless the next title is "truck full of kittens drown in orphanage fire. Ps. School shooting"

This discussion reminds me of a joke I know...

After a night out drinking, a man is walking home, and he sees another man on the sidewalk, on his hands and knees, right under a streetlight.
"Are you okay?" he says to the man on the sidewalk.
"Yeah, I'm alright, I'm just looking for my car keys. I think they fell out of my pocket about half a block that way."
"If you dropped them over there, why are you looking here?"
"Because the light is better here."

Generic wrote:This discussion reminds me of a joke I know...

After a night out drinking, a man is walking home, and he sees another man on the sidewalk, on his hands and knees, right under a streetlight.
"Are you okay?" he says to the man on the sidewalk.
"Yeah, I'm alright, I'm just looking for my car keys. I think they fell out of my pocket about half a block that way."
"If you dropped them over there, why are you looking here?"
"Because the light is better here."

Lol, zing.

I guess we could ignore that I have spent the last week or so promoting songfight by posting on other relevant boards and suggesting to other song writers and song writing challenging boards that they should also participate here, driving traffic to your site and a larger audience for your music and more artists to bounce ideas off

Most millennialis by now have been using message boards for over a decade and can tell if a board is worth their time or not - they go to the first forum link, spend about 60 seconds or so and if they don't feel engaged they leave, don't come back and don't think twice about coming again. Considerate newcomer attempts to instigate conversation and is met with "you darn whippersnapper, this goes one drawer higher" and that is all. No conversation just a bunch of finger wagging.

But yeah - cool story bro.

Generic wrote:This discussion reminds me of a joke I know...

After a night out drinking, a man is walking home, and he sees another man on the sidewalk, on his hands and knees, right under a streetlight.
"Are you okay?" he says to the man on the sidewalk.
"Yeah, I'm alright, I'm just looking for my car keys. I think they fell out of my pocket about half a block that way."
"If you dropped them over there, why are you looking here?"
"Because the light is better here."

Also this is not a joke, this type of literary device is known as an 'anecdote'

darricklucas wrote:

Generic wrote:This discussion reminds me of a joke I know...

After a night out drinking, a man is walking home, and he sees another man on the sidewalk, on his hands and knees, right under a streetlight.
"Are you okay?" he says to the man on the sidewalk.
"Yeah, I'm alright, I'm just looking for my car keys. I think they fell out of my pocket about half a block that way."
"If you dropped them over there, why are you looking here?"
"Because the light is better here."

Lol, zing.

I guess we could ignore that I have spent the last week or so promoting songfight by posting on other relevant boards and suggesting to other song writers and song writing challenging boards that they should also participate here, driving traffic to your site and a larger audience for your music and more artists to bounce ideas off

Most millennialis by now have been using message boards for over a decade and can tell if a board is worth their time or not - they go to the first forum link, spend about 60 seconds or so and if they don't feel engaged they leave, don't come back and don't think twice about coming again. Considerate newcomer attempts to instigate conversation and is met with "you darn whippersnapper, this goes one drawer higher" and that is all. No conversation just a bunch of finger wagging.

But yeah - cool story bro.

Yes, you can call in any number of favors that no one asked you for, and make yourself look like a martyr, but that still doesn't magically make the "Fight Discussions and Reviews" thread the right place to post this thread, and none of it would make you above reproach.

Generic wrote:

darricklucas wrote:

Generic wrote:This discussion reminds me of a joke I know...

After a night out drinking, a man is walking home, and he sees another man on the sidewalk, on his hands and knees, right under a streetlight.
"Are you okay?" he says to the man on the sidewalk.
"Yeah, I'm alright, I'm just looking for my car keys. I think they fell out of my pocket about half a block that way."
"If you dropped them over there, why are you looking here?"
"Because the light is better here."

Lol, zing.

I guess we could ignore that I have spent the last week or so promoting songfight by posting on other relevant boards and suggesting to other song writers and song writing challenging boards that they should also participate here, driving traffic to your site and a larger audience for your music and more artists to bounce ideas off

Most millennialis by now have been using message boards for over a decade and can tell if a board is worth their time or not - they go to the first forum link, spend about 60 seconds or so and if they don't feel engaged they leave, don't come back and don't think twice about coming again. Considerate newcomer attempts to instigate conversation and is met with "you darn whippersnapper, this goes one drawer higher" and that is all. No conversation just a bunch of finger wagging.

But yeah - cool story bro.

Yes, you can call in any number of favors that no one asked you for, and make yourself look like a martyr, but that still doesn't magically make the "Fight Discussions and Reviews" thread the right place to post this thread, and none of it would make you above reproach.

None of that is happening here. You been to the internet before? Any newcomer can scroll down to the bottom and see "currently 12 active users, most users 235 in 2007" and see that this is a forum that is declining. You are not in a position to be turning away fresh blood.

What I'm offering is insight and knowledge to the community for no reason. I could easily have been petty and said something in response like 'bro I checked your personal site, 1998 called and they want their website back' but I don't - I choose to be classy

Still trying to start a conversation about songwriting...

guys, go flame each other somewhere else please.

JB

jb wrote:guys, go flame each other somewhere else please.

JB

Not trying to flame anyone brosef, just defending my grill in my thread.