Science + Politics = ?

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:49 am

A well written article and an even better cartoon:

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:45 pm

Very interesting article. Thanks for the link... should try to follow up and see some of the dude's original research.
-bill

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:08 am

Here's a bit more on the importance of scientific literacy.

By any measure, the average American is not scientifically literate, even with a college degree ... At a recent Harvard University commencement, an informal poll revealed that fewer than ten percent of graduating seniors could explain why it's hotter in summer than in winter.

And here are 11 science questions that every high school graduate should be able to answer. It's alarming how many people I know who'd fail this test.

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:37 am

Good test. I got 6 out of 11 right, 3 half right (one of two contributing parts of the answers), and 2 wrong. Strictly speaking, I'm a normal dumb ass American.

I'm amazed at how few people understand why the moon changes appearance, or what causes a solar/lunar eclipse. Especially since it's something we observe most days (depending on where you live, of course).

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:10 am

9/11 - though I reckon that 'salt on the footpath' one is unfair for a Queenslander

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:16 am

i generally consider myself to be fairly informed about scientific matters, and yet i couldn't answer three of these.

so thanks caravan ray, for making me feel better: in your line of work i'd imagine you'd be expected to have much more exposure and working knowledge of general science (whether this statement is accurate or not is immaterial; what matters is i don't feel so bad about the questions now)...

Post by jb » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:52 am

Caravan Ray wrote:9/11

That's your answer to everything.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:55 pm

jb wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:9/11
That's your answer to everything.

Yes - on the 9th of November all will be revealed!

sausage boy · Post by **sausage boy** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:58 pm

7 1/2 out of 11.

One question I sort of got.

Don't you watch crappy American Christmas movies, Ray? Thats where I learnt about this salt on ice thing.

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:38 pm

Considering most US high schools offer biology, chemistry, and physics courses(at least these are the generic science courses-- chem offering the lab that so many colleges like) many of these questions were more environmental science or biology based. So saying that all high school graduates should know these is more 'all high school graduates that take environmental science and remember biology should know these'.

But that's just me trying to justify getting only half of these right.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:55 am

ok, i knew the answers to - let's say 9 and 2 halves. most of these are good questions, but #9 is kind of stupid - who needs to know that exact number? i had a pretty good estimate, but really that's not science, that's memorization. in the real world we can look up numbers like that when we need them.
-bill

Post by **Spud** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:14 am

I agree 100%. I got all of the ones that required that you understand something. I got the ones wrong that required memorized information.

mico saudad · Post by **mico saudad** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:42 am

[/lurking]

Good post Des.

Bill and Spud are right, though. I'm a scientist two months from a PhD and I only got 6 completely right. Science involvement and interest increases when one is concerned more with understanding of basic concepts than about memorizing facts that can be researched.

#1: How about "Why is the water along the Pacific coast of the US generally colder than the water along the Atlantic coast?"

#4: What are all of the things that might happen to two groups of birds over the centuries after a single flock of similar birds splits into two groups, one of which inhabits a small dry island with no predators, and the other half flying off to a thriving jungle full of danger and plenty. (or something like that)

#6: A proper 1 paragraph answer to this would allow you to intuit the answers to the following questions: Why isn't the sky violet (which is the shortest wave radiation we can perceive)? And why does the sky appear white or yellow near the sun? And why are sunsets a range of oranges and reds (and sometimes with a green flash!)? As it stands they've just given you a label: "the sky is blue because of the sky blueification process".

#7: This question and answer reflects a "pre 1911 mindset". A better question: You're in a desert and you see a mirage - how is it possible to have light seeming to reflect off of something it's not really reflecting off of?

#9 How about, "the oldest fossil on earth is said to be 3.9 billion years old. How can one possibly make that assessment accurately given how long ago that was?"

[lurking]

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:33 pm

Interesting thoughts. Though I found the spirit of the original questions was more "if you have a basic grasp of the answers, you're doin' OK."

i.e.,

HeuristicsInc wrote:but #9 is kind of stupid - who needs to know that exact number?

To get it right, you just need to say something like "more than 3 billion years." A lot of folks think that life started orders of magnitude more recently.

bjam wrote:So saying that all high school graduates should know these is more 'all high school graduates that take environmental science and remember biology should know these'.

But perhaps that's the fundamental problem: Our schools (yes, we have the same problem in Canada) turn out students who don't have a grasp of even the simplest science principles.

There are a litany of reasons why all of us, even English and Humanities majors, need to know these things. Two of the most pressing:
- Knowing when our governments (yes, we have the same problem here in Canada) are lying about science issues, like global warming and stem cell research.
- Making informed choices about education policy. The school board you elect decides how your children will be educated. If you think the Earth is 6,000 years old, you'll probably elect officials who don't have your child's science education as a priority.

bjam wrote:But that's just me trying to justify getting only half of these right.

I bet that still puts you in the top 10 percent ....

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:00 pm

deshead wrote:Our schools (yes, we have the same problem in Canada) turn out students who don't have a grasp of even the simplest science principles.

this is entirely true and no-one is debating this fact. but the point we all are whining about is, the questions listed here are not "even the simplest science principles".

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:05 am

tviyh wrote:but the point we all are whining about is, the questions listed here are not "even the simplest science principles".

I'd learned 10 of the 11 things on that list by grade 8 science. (Neurotransmitters came later.) Is the curriculum that much different in the U.S.? Where I grew up, all kids in grades 7, 8, and 9 had to take a general science course. It didn't become optional until Grade 10 biology.

(Of course, that didn't stop most of my friends from leaving high school basically illiterate in science .. Which I guess is the real issue.)

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:35 am

In my school district you take general science courses in elementary and middle (learning about the environment and very, very basic chemistry and physics). Then in high school you take â€˜Introduction to Chemistry, Physics, and the Environmentâ€™ > Biology > Chemistry > Physics. So by the time youâ€™ve graduated high school you havenâ€™t really learnt about the earth as an environment in over 3 years.

Considering everything you learn in a school itâ€™s no surprise that students leave not knowing some â€˜basicâ€™ science facts. Where I live students study for a test, retain the information till midterms or finals and then get rid of the information. I got an A+ in my first semester of European History, but give me that midterm now, after a whole semester of other facts and figures, I doubt I'd get a good grade. It's just a human response that you retain facts you need to know. If you're gonna be a biochemist, it's probably a good idea to know these things, if you're going to become a lawyer, it's probably not as important. Just different things to memorize.

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:53 am

biggest problem with school... it's all memorizing...
none of it truely lets you just 'figure' something out...
it gives you all these 'answers' and you answer them later on...
with what they told you to say...

it's rather rediculuous if you ask me...
i think if they are gonna bother teaching anything as fact...
they might as well come at it from an angle that seems less like force feading... and more like... actual 'mental work' as far as figuring... instead of just memorizing...
i always felt patronized myself... really doesn't help one 'wanna' learn in school... i've learned more outside of school... then i ever did in it... (which is why my grammar and typing sucks.. cause i really don't give a rats ass anymore)
i'm honestly tired of being 'told'... i honestly really don't believe anything easily... i have to force myself into really believing anything... it's all a flawed perception in one way or another...
alot of it is placating smaller issues, so we miss all the big ones...
which means absolutely no issues among the masses... so any real big change becomes near to impossible...

to me... it seems like a waste to train yourself to fit in... cause it only gets you stuck in the way things are... i wanna know why... they won't even do any real test studies with colloidal silver... (because it works?)...
i'd really like to know what we get out of the deal??... cause i'm feeling rather ripped the fuck off...
if i don't look or act a certain way... nothing i say will be taken seriously... because everyone truely stands behind everything they've been told... cause it's just 'easier' i guess...
i say why not question it?...
find out a lot of interesting things with this method... but then again... it'll only piss you off... so i guess it depends on what makes you happy...

ignorance... or knowledge...

what's important... is we don't get pig headed... and truely think our government would openly offer up any kind of 'good' information without a motive...
look around...
i don't notice anything that isn't in cahoots with something else... with some major propaganda being thrown right and left all through out recent history...
and i think it's rather annoying acting like i really buy into the hype... i want to change it...
but what does one person do? absolutely nothing...
and that's exactly how they like it...

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:37 am

Poor June wrote:biggest problem with school... it's all memorizing...
none of it truely lets you just 'figure' something out...
it gives you all these 'answers' and you answer them later on...
with what they told you to say...

But when you memorize stuff you figure it out. When you go to nursing school, you learn and memorize the 'stuff', then you put it into practice, and you figure it out along the way. They can't just be like, "Hey, sooo, go give that guy an IV" and have you go at it. You've got to memorize crap before you do it. When you learn a language, you've got to memorize the basics, before you write a 1000 page novel.

Personally I've learned more outside of school that I'll use in every day situations. Manners, how to cook, how to speak to someone formally, and so on and so forth. But the whole going to school and learning grammar and French and Algebra, it's handy. It gets you to a point where you can then learn the bigger stuff and actually do things. Once you understand what you've been 'told' you can move on and try and warp what you've been 'told' into what you're going to believe. In primary school I learnt that there was a dude called Noah who built an ark and saved 2 of every animal. Then in middle school I realized that this would be impossible, due to there being a million species of animals, so I warped what I had been 'told' into what I actually believed.

Or something.

(A teenager defending school, WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?)

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:44 am

Bjam wrote:
Poor June wrote:biggest problem with school... it's all memorizing...
none of it truely lets you just 'figure' something out...
it gives you all these 'answers' and you answer them later on...
with what they told you to say...
But when you memorize stuff you figure it out. When you go to nursing school, you learn and memorize the 'stuff', then you put it into practice, and you figure it out along the way. They can't just be like, "Hey, sooo, go give that guy an IV" and have you go at it. You've got to memorize crap before you do it. When you learn a language, you've got to memorize the basics, before you write a 1000 page novel.

well basic's are important... but if you don't question the basic structure of learning... it doesn't change... we have come to the conclusion that we know all there is to know...
but yet most diseases are more recent then historical... it almost to me seems more like 'de-evolution'... where we've come to the points where we can't get past the 'obvious' in our minds...
in reality... government organized learning methods are more to help you succeed in this society... not so much a tool for 'actual' knowledge... it is just a start to those that really wanna learn... the best things aren't in a class room... these things are more often then not... farely questionable...

i honestly think that technology has put a catalyst on our own pattern of thought.... it's too much fluff not enough actual understanding

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:35 am

Poor June wrote:it almost to me seems more like 'de-evolution'

Q: Are we not men?

Poor June · Post by **Poor June** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:24 am

Paco Del Stinko wrote:
Poor June wrote:it almost to me seems more like 'de-evolution'
Q: Are we not men?

we are men
but poorly fed information
is still poorly fed information

and when that isn't questioned then mere perception is skewed
and has no real stand outside of general concepts
in other words
we're stuck in a rut