Ask An Expert!

[Caravan Ray]

I think there should be a thread where we can draw on the non-musical and non-computer related skills of Songfighters

I think a general consultency fee of a free cover version of one of the consultants songs would be a fair price for any assistance offered here.


...so continuing from another thread, the on-going saga of my pool filter pump and BLT's efforts to diagnose it....

I come from a land down under, where beer does flow and men chunder

Yeah, it sounds like the suction line. We use a CO2 tank to blow out lines, but there is an inexpensive device that you can purchase at you local hardware store called a "drain jet". it may not go by that name there, so I'll enplane it.
It screws on to the end of your garden hose
It is a rubber or canvas blow bag looking thing
You hook it to the hose and insert it in the suction line on the pump end and turn on the hose. The drain jet will quickly expand in the line and create pressure in the suction line blowing any debris back out through the skimmer.
It's important to blow the debris from the pump towards the skimmer. If you blow from the skimmer to the pump, the debris call become lodged in the line worse.

If you have two people, you can do the same thing by wrapping a wet rag around the end of the hose about 6 inches from the end. You want to wrap the rag just big enough to slightly fit in the pipe and create a block so that pressure can build in the line. This eliminates the need for the drain jet device. Have one person hold the ragged hose in the line while the other turns on the hose. I suggest you be the "turn on the hose guy" because the "hold the hose guy" gets wet. Then go watch the skimmer to see if it's flowing freely. Actually, I guess I should have said "flowing smoothly". Because it would have to be in the United States to be flowing "freely"...BAM! ~Steven Colbert

EDIT: I google a picture of a drain jet. Handy to have around.

OK - sound like it is worth a go.

But I have just been doing some tinkering and made the following observations - which may or may nor be relevant.

If I fill the pump pot with water - it does drain back to the pool - but very slowly. From this I suspect a suction line blockage may be likely

BUT

If I turn the pump on while the pump pot is full of water - nothing happens. The pump motor goes - but there is no movement of the water in the pump pot. The impeller does not seem to move. I can turn the impeller with my finger (while the pump is off) and it seems to move reasonably freely - but nothing when I start the pump. I am thinking my pump may be rooted.

So, suction line blockage aside - surely something should happen water movement-wise if I start the pump while the pump pot is full of water? Or is my logic completely wrong here?

[anti-m]

I think there should be a thread where we can draw on the non-musical and non-computer related skills of Songfighters

Heh! This is a cool companion to the role call thread.

Unfortunately, I am expert at nothing terribly use-able... (I can help you budget your clinical trial! Whee!)

...But I may abuse / cover some of you more expert-y people out there if this thread takes off!

Edit: "Role" call? I meant roll call. I need to get some beer in me so that I'll have an excuse for these kinds of mistakes. Ta!

[Billy's Little Trip]

I think there should be a thread where we can draw on the non-musical and non-computer related skills of Songfighters

Heh! This is a cool companion to the role call thread.

Unfortunately, I am expert at nothing terribly use-able... (I can help you budget your clinical trial! Whee!)

...But I may abuse / cover some of you more expert-y people out there if this thread takes off!

Edit: "Role" call? I meant roll call. I need to get some beer in me so that I'll have an excuse for these kinds of mistakes. Ta!

What, are you kidding me? I now put my "good home grown" tomatoes on my pizza just before I pull it out oven the oven. I wouldn't have thought of that in a million years. I just keep doing it the same way I've always done it and think, damn, where did my tomatoes go?!
....What did Albert say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

[Billy's Little Trip]

OK - sound like it is worth a go.

But I have just been doing some tinkering and made the following observations - which may or may nor be relevant.

If I fill the pump pot with water - it does drain back to the pool - but very slowly. From this I suspect a suction line blockage may be likely

BUT

If I turn the pump on while the pump pot is full of water - nothing happens. The pump motor goes - but there is no movement of the water in the pump pot. The impeller does not seem to move. I can turn the impeller with my finger (while the pump is off) and it seems to move reasonably freely - but nothing when I start the pump. I am thinking my pump may be rooted.

So, suction line blockage aside - surely something should happen water movement-wise if I start the pump while the pump pot is full of water? Or is my logic completely wrong here?

You are heading in the right direction with your thought process.
#1. If the water is flowing back to the pool, even slowly, your suction line is free enough to catch a prime, even if it is a weak prime.

#2. It sounds like you said that WITH the pump pot lid off and the pot full of water, the water didn't move when you turned on the pump, is this correct? If so, then the problem is in the impeller. You said it moves when you stick your finger in it and turn it, so that means the obvious, it's not binding up.

Two possibilities:
#1. The impeller is full of debris and the pump needs to be pulled apart and the impeller cleaned.
#2. The impeller has spun off the motor shaft and is not turning. There are two types in the pool industry, threaded and keyed. Only threaded shafts/impellers have this problem.
The cause:
When you get an air pocket in your filter, it compresses while the pump is running (compressed air). When the pump shuts off, the compressed air re-expands, sending the water in the direction of least resistance, which is back through your pump. This causes the impeller to spin backwards. Not a problem for the most part, but it CAN spin the impeller right off the threaded shaft if it is a huge burst and the motor bearings are getting old and not letting the shaft spin as fast as the impeller is trying to spin. Also, if you turn off the pump, then as the re-expansion is spinning the shaft in reverse, you turn the pump back on at that moment, it will spin the impeller off the shaft.

Also, an easy method for cleaning the impeller without taking the pump apart.
Take off the pump pot lid, take out the basket. Open the air release on top of the filter tank. This will allow the filter to drain via gravity. It will send a ton of water out through the pump. While this is happening, with the pump OFF, try to get your fingers in as you were doing to check if the impeller was turning. Try to see/feel any debris coming out. If there is debris in the impeller veins, it will push it out enough so that you can get the pump to prime up. When the pump gets full prime, it will clear any other crap in the impeller. Keep in mind, this method only works if the filter tank is still full of water.

Also, remind me to tell you about a better filter that can be backwashed and recycling the water back to your pool. Your City will love you in this situation and probably make you a king....or what ever your tribe calls the guy that gets his picture on money.

[Caravan Ray]

Also, an easy method for cleaning the impeller without taking the pump apart.
Take off the pump pot lid, take out the basket. Open the air release on top of the filter tank. This will allow the filter to drain via gravity. It will send a ton of water out through the pump. While this is happening, with the pump OFF, try to get your fingers in as you were doing to check if the impeller was turning. Try to see/feel any debris coming out. If there is debris in the impeller veins, it will push it out enough so that you can get the pump to prime up. When the pump gets full prime, it will clear any other crap in the impeller. Keep in mind, this method only works if the filter tank is still full of water.

OK - now we're getting somewhere! that sounds good - I'll try that. The debris-in-impeller scenario sounds very likely.

If that don't work - I guess it is out of my hands and I will have to wait till I can get a chance to see my pool dude.

Also, remind me to tell you about a better filter that can be backwashed and recycling the water back to your pool. Your City will love you in this situation and probably make you a king....or what ever your tribe calls the guy that gets his picture on money.

That sounds good - but not for now. I will probably be selling this house soon - and its crappy filter can go with it. When I get a pool put into my other house that I'm renovating - I'll get a decent filter then


Anyway - thanks for all that BLT - I better start working on your fee. And if I actually get the pump going again - you may even get two cover versions out of it.

[Billy's Little Trip]

It's not hard to pull the pump apart. I can walk you through it if need be. I may not be in the trenches anymore. But back in the day, my band played gigs almost every night, then I'd wake up bright and early, around lunch time, and fix pool pumps until the end of the day, or when I saw teachers getting off work, which ever came first.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Funny coincidence. I was ritualistically drinking my coffee in the backyard this morning, and noticed that my kreepy krauly (auto pool cleaner) wasn't moving. I hear the pump running, so I go over and see no pressure on the filter psi gauge. I kind of chuckled to myself thinking, isn't it ironic?
Anyway, I opened the pump pot and found a huge crack in the pot basket, just as I was telling you to look for. Sure enough, when we had all the fires and winds a couple weeks ago, I got a ton of crap in the pool and my Kreepy did a great job keeping my pool clean, but I didn't uphold my end of our working relationship, and forgot to empty the basket, so it packed full until it finally cracked allowing debris to get through to the impeller. I was able to use the quick method to clear the impeller and all is good again.

[Caravan Ray]

my pump still cactus. maybe next weekend will have time to get back on the case

[Billy's Little Trip]

I know you're saying that your pump still doesn't work, but cactus? Explain this Aussie usage of the word that is normally used to describe a family (Cactaceae, the cactus family) of plants that have succulent stems and branches with scales or spines instead of leaves and are found especially in dry areas (as deserts)

[Tonamel]

I'm going to randomly guess it's a substitution for the Yiddish word "verkakte," meaning bad, not working, run down, etc.

[Caravan Ray]

I'm going to randomly guess it's a substitution for the Yiddish word "verkakte," meaning bad, not working, run down, etc.

Err..maybe - though it more implies completely dead, rather than just rundown

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cactus

Also, I think a Yiddish origin for a word used in Australia but not the USA would be pretty unlikely. There have never been that many Yids in this neck of the woods.

My guess is that it probably evolved from "cack" - which used to be used here when I was a kiddie as a politer way of saying shit.

According to the Urban Dictionary:
Cack means shit in Lancashire. It comes from the Flemish kakken=to shit. Centuries ago, Flemish weavers were imported to Lancashire.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cack

...which implies that "cactus" used in Aus. and the Yiddish "verkakte" probably actually do come from the same original Germanic root! Wow - isn't language interesting!

...but none of this helps my pump. It's cactus.

[Billy's Little Trip]

My guess is that it probably evolved from "cack" - which used to be used here when I was a kiddie as a politer way of saying shit.

According to the Urban Dictionary:
Cack means shit in Lancashire. It comes from the Flemish kakken=to shit. Centuries ago, Flemish weavers were imported to Lancashire.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cack

Interesting, an American term usually used by children for the same thing is caca or cacka. Not sure of the spelling. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=caca
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cacka

[Caravan Ray]

...but none of this helps my pump. It's cactus.

It is indeed cactus. Or completely rooted may be the correct term

The pool dude was just here. The impellor shaft had sheared. Need a new pump.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Need a new pump.

One that won't shear a shaft?
A pump to make my water move
So I can float out on my raft
[horn bridge]
One with sealed bearings
And an efficient ratio
A pump that works night and day
With consistent...
Flow (flow flow flow)

Okay, if the efforts to do a song for "And counting" is only producing bad Huey Lewis parodies, I think I'm done for the night.

[Billy's Little Trip]

...but none of this helps my pump. It's cactus.

It is indeed cactus. Or completely rooted may be the correct term

The pool dude was just here. The impellor shaft had sheared. Need a new pump.

If the shaft thread has stripped, you need a new motor (dry end). If the impeller has spun, you need a new impeller (wet end). But needing a whole new pump is your choice, not the pool dudes choice. A new pump means re-plumbing a whole new pump.
There are advantages to getting a whole new pump.
#1. A manufacturer warranty
#2. More energy efficient if the old pump is over 5 years old (this may only be a U.S. thing)

BUT, a new pump is 3 or 4 times more expensive than just replacing the bad parts.

Another bit of info. It's very rare for a motor shaft to strip the threads. Motor shafts are case hardened stainless steal. Now, impeller threads strip easy, they are brass. With that said, ask the guy to show you the motor when he does the work. I'll guarantee the motor shaft is perfect.

If it were my pool? Id replace the whole pump if were over 7 years old. Less than 5 years, I'd just repair it.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Need a new pump.

One that won't shear a shaft?
A pump to make my water move
So I can float out on my raft
[horn bridge]
One with sealed bearings
And an efficient ratio
A pump that works night and day
With consistent...
Flow (flow flow flow)

Okay, if the efforts to do a song for "And counting" is only producing bad Huey Lewis parodies, I think I'm done for the night.

By the way, interesting lyrics. Ive never thought of interjecting my business into my lyrics. Very cool.

[HeuristicsInc]

Okay, if the efforts to do a song for "And counting" is only producing bad Huey Lewis parodies, I think I'm done for the night.

the funny thing is, i thought huey lewis when i read that. ouch, drink.
-bill

[Märk]

Weird, I had 'Ghostbusters' go through my head when I read it

[Dan-O from Five-O]

I was thinking it was a "Men at Work" song until I tried singing the lyrics and realized like HeuristicsInc did that I actually had a Huey Lewis song going on in my head.

Double that drink please, and skip the ice and chaser.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Oh man, the power, the POWER! Heh. Sorry to hijack the thread, y'all.

[HeuristicsInc]

hey, i like huey lewis. we saw him in concert this year. he did indeed sing that song.
-bill

[Caravan Ray]

Hey BLT,

I forgot to pay you for your swimming pool pump consultation