Drum Overheads

[Adam!]

To the drummers out there, what setup are you using for overheads? My current arrangement is Recorderman using a couple of grossly mismatched large diaphragm condensers (Audio Technical AT4040 & ADK A-51s), but it's not really working for me, mostly because one of those is my main vocal mic and I hate having to move it around all the time. Plus, the A-51s just sounds fricken' terrible. So, I'm thinking it's time I splurge for a dedicated matched pair, but I'm really at a loss for what to get. My considerations are:

• I'm in a small room with a fair amount of absorption
• the kit is quite muffled. I want a dry sound
• I only have 6 inputs. I'm thinking 2 overheads + close mics on the kick and snare. And maybe the toms. I don't plan on mic'ing the hi-hat... but I could.
• $300 - $500 for the pair sounds good to me
• Versatility would be a plus.

Anyway, I'm thinking a pair of small diaphragm condensers in an XY-ish configuration could work for me, but having never tried it I'm not sure. Anyone have any recommendations?

Bonus Question! Anyone had experience with Rode NT5s? The local shop has a pair of these in my price range.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Disclaimer: I'm no drummer. Bonus question: Yes, I have a matched set of NT5s that I use in a Recorderman style, along with mics on all the other drums. I had been using a pair of Roland(!) mics that are supposed to work with mic simulators on my recorder, but after switching, the change was drastically improved. They are far more bright, and don't appear to be harsh sounding. I'm sure there are better, but as you mentioned, they fit the budget and are all a putz like me will ever need. I'll put up an overhead mic only track later today.

[Paco Del Stinko]

OK - Here are links to drum tracks for the two Nur Ein songs I've submitted so far. While not that good, tey should be familiar to you. (Adam!) Notes:
-no EQ, compression, reverb, etc. added, just straight recording.
-panned hard left and right
-mics are two drumsticks away from center of snare
-my main goal was to capture cymbals and higher end freqs
-cheap kit, played by a sloppy performer, this is almost as embarrassing as a vocals only track

I think that the track for "Sleepwalking" is a good example, as the dynamics are from how they were played, not through fader levels. Also starts on brushes and switches to a light stick for the last 30 seconds. I put the whole songs, minus non-drum intros, incase somebody wanted to use them for something. Somebody desperate, that is! Hopefully helpful, and if anything, will sway any judgement away from my favor in Nur Ein voting!

http://www.nubsy.com/wp-content/uploads ... alking.mp3

http://www.nubsy.com/wp-content/uploads ... kstart.mp3

[melvin]

Paco, you're ridiculously modest! These drum tracks sound pretty sweet to me. What kind of cheap kit are you using? I need to buy one, since the beautiful Pearl kit I had on loan for the past year or so was recently... de-loaned.

[Adam!]

I was hoping you'd chime in, Paco: I loved your drum sound on Kick Start. Well, I think you just convinced me to go for the NT5s.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Hey guys, thanks for the kind words. Adam!, I am psyched to think that I may have been of some help to someone with such talent as you. Again, no expert here, but those seem to be good mics for the money, and I'll be interested in hearing what you can produce with them. Grab'em up!

Melvin, I'm sorry to hear that your kit was de-loaned: it sure sounded nice. The kit I got a couple of years ago is a no name, but supposedly made in the old Rogers factory. I've swapped the snare for a Slingerland that's at least 20 years old. It's been dubbed 'the Slut' but a pal of mine, as I'm the fourth guy in a bunch of my friends to own it, everyone paying the same 40 dollar fee. I've still got a lot to learn, but I tune the drums up every time I get set to record, and that's a big plus I'm sure others will agree on.

OK, I don't want to hijack the thread, but thanks again and I'm glad I could contribute.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

My drums are "trashy" at best, and I'm waiting for another cheap mixer to escape backorder-land so's I can leave mikes setup on it, but... single condenser overhead (Oktava MK319 @ ± head height, over the snare, if you're standing behind the kit), 57 under the snare (with a cheap reverb pedal for 'verb), and a de-windscreened Nady SP-5 thrown in the kick.

Very cheap, very mono. Loosely based on the setup described by The Door's engineer guy, here.

I suppose an example would be helpful Exploration for A Problem of Perspective. In hindsight, I could pro'lly move the overhead down a bit, to get more of the hat.

[ken]

I feel like I should have some really good advice here, but the truth is, there are a ton of options out there. In fact, if you aren't in a hurry and are interested, I can point you to a crazy good deal on some Chinese tube condensers. For whatever reason, my inclination is to point you to just replacing your vocal mic. Why buy a pair of mics when you only need one? Hell, I rarely record drums in stereo these days anyway. I tend to use an Oktava Mod modded 219 as a mono overhead and then some kind of kick and/or snare mic. Are you going to dedicate these mics solely to drum overheads or are you interested in multiple uses? Okay, enough confusion. Here is a list of recommended mics for you that, if I were in your situation, I would buy:

#1 Cascade X-15 stereo ribbon mic. Listen to the samples on their website. This mic sounds amazing. Easy to set up and rock. I tried to buy a pair of knockoffs of these mics, but the deal fell through. I will own this mic someday. $400
http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_X-15.html

#2 Marshall MXL V67Q Stereo mic. The V67G was my first condenser mic. I don't use it much now, but I used it on the drums for Loyalty Day and it always sounded pretty good. You can see that I have a penchant for stereo mics because I'm lazy and Songfight deadlines are short. Anything I can do to reduce set up time is good and just putting up one stereo mic is easier than positioning a pair of overheads. $200
http://www.mxlmics.com/condenser_mic/mx ... stereo.htm

#3 Avantone CK-33 Stereo FET mic. I have been lusting over the Studio Projects LSD-2, a stereo version of their C-1 mic. I've got both the B-1 and C-3 and they are great sounding drum overhead mics. In fact, we used a pair of B1s for a while as overheads in the studio. However, the LSD-2 costs about $700, which is a little steep for me most of the time. When I found this Chinese knockoff, I got really excited. $350
http://www.avantelectronics.com/CK-33%2 ... %20Mic.htm

Truth be told, these days if I record stereo drums I use a pair of mics in an M/S pair. It sounds great and is pretty easy to set up. You don't need a matching pair to do it either. I also like using a pair of ribbon mics in Blumlein. Yeah, spaced pairs are boring.

PM me if you have other questions or if you are determined to buy a pair of small diaphragm condensers.

Be well,
Ken

[blue]

if you want a nice, solid dry sound for no money, get a pair of the nady ribbons. they have been terrific for me.

http://www.songfight.org/music/at_the_a ... io_ata.mp3

i don't bother with stereo'ing, i just put one where it sounds good over the hats and one where it sounds good over the floor tom. i always end up manually lining up all the drum mics for phase anyways.

anyways, these things:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nady-RSM-4-Studio-I ... dZViewItem

and these things:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nady-RSM-5-Studio-I ... dZViewItem

are awesome.

[stateshirt]

I have two Rode NT5 (matched pair) in an XY configuration sitting fairly high above the center of the drum set, actually maybe a bit more towards where I sit. I like the sound I've been getting. I prefer to use the overheads to capture the entire kit, rather than just the cymbals, so I try to keep them from being aimed directly at cymbals. I like the clarity I get with this set up.

I used to have a pair of inexpensive Oktava mics (looked very similar to the NT5) but one of them decided to stop working. Strange since all they did was sit on mic stands their whole lives! Before that it was just whatever I had lying around (SM58, etc) and that was interesting but not exactly to my liking! I'd really like to check out some of the other mics that were suggested here... would be fun to experiment with that a bit more!

[Adam!]

Well, thanks for the advice, everyone.

Ken, that's quite the rundown of stereo mics. The mp3 samples in one of those links sounded amazing. Eventually I decided against going the dedicated stereo mic (or M/S, with its hypercardiod mic) route, because I can't imagine what else other than drums I would ever use them for. As for mono vs stereo overheads, you know me: when it comes to production I'm all about the needless excesses . I put an honest effort into finding some cheap ribbon mics (localy; I don't wait), but came up bust. Seeing as those Nadys don't appear to cost any money at all, I may still pick some up down the road just to fill out my mic cabinet.

In the end I went for a matched pair of NT5s from a local shop (as well as an absolutely killer new mic stand: 1.5 kilo adjustable counterweight, telescoping boom, all the grips have locking teeth. But that's another thread. Anyway, now my vocal mic hangs down in front of me from above, making me feel a little like Rush Limbaugh). I spent a big chunk of the weekend messing around with different recording setups, before settling on a sort of modified Glyn Johns-y type thing. It's a configuration that looks really wrong but somehow seems to work great. X-Y didn't work for me at all. Anyway, it's too late to record a demonstration, but I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

Also, it turns out that my audio interface actually only has 4 inputs, so that solved my should-I-mic-the-hi-hat-or-the-toms dilemma: neither!

[irwin]

I've been looking into anew pair of overheads, and I was considering the Shure SM-81 vs. the Rode NT5 vs the Oktava MK-12.

Anyone have opinions on the relative merits of those?

I'd want something that functions reasonably well in a stereo pair on an acoustic guitar as well.

[Henrietta]

Hi, long time no post!

Okay, I'm looking to record a demo for my current band... but those Rode NT5's are a little steep $$ for me. I like Blue's cheap ribbon mic idea, but I think I'd rather stick with condensers. Any thoughts on this pair of AKG Perception 150's? Thanks in advance for your sage collective SF wisdom!
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=482393

[ken]

They cost a little more, but the MXL 604 is a nice small diaphragm condenser.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=273177

Ken

[Henrietta]

Looks good... but will the 30Hz low cut still be okay for drums?

[ken]

You probably want to cut more than that on your overheads. Get your low end from your kick mic.

Ken

[Henrietta]

That makes sense. Thanks Ken!

[Adam!]

You know, it's high time I actually posted some results. After much tweaking, I finally settled on a close recorderman arrangement for my overheads (each mic 30" from the snare and 40" from the kick, one over my shoulder and the other out a couple feet above the small tom), but instead of pointing both mics at the snare, I pointed the left one at the hihat and the right one at the floor tom. That way the snare is about 30-45 degrees off-axis from the business end of each mic. This doesn't give me a particularly snappy snare sound, but hey: that's what the snare mic is for. I'd rather have a clear hihat and a punchy tom, anyway.

Anyway, here are the overheads for a super secret project something I am working on. Ok, so it's not that secret. No EQ or compression at all (you'll have to turn it up), mics panned 85% left and 85% right. Disclaimer: I am not actually this good of a drummer. Specifically, my kick leg is kind of retarded, so I recorded the kick on a separate take, and also overdubbed a couple crashes. But, I didn't change any of the panning/levels/whatever for those overdubs, so if I could actually play this, this is what the overheads would sound like. I also made heavy use of Cubase's audio-quantize feature.

I'll post how these sound in a mix (and with with the other mics) when I can.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Sounds good, Adam!. Nice and dry. While most people would want the sound of the room, and understandably, I seem to recall you mentioning that you didn't. Neither do I, for what it's worth, as the only place available for me to record drums is with them crammed into a room, in an island of gear, and one that's probably not great for ambiance anyway. I mic each drum individually as well as the overheads.

I like the success of your overdub process as well, nobody could probably tell that that was how you did it. Melvin did/does something like that as well, and I used to build entire beats, from the bottom up, with just a couple of drums, broken cymbals, and tape speed back in the early days of 4-tracking. I may try it with the full kit someday as well. Point being that for non 'real' drummer studio rats, it's the end result that matters. Something like that. Nicely done all around, thanks for sharing.