Help me , I'm Roning!

[wages]

Preface: I think everyone would agree that I try to be honest but pleasant when I review others, but for this message, I'm just going to be frank and not worry about civility.

Rone, Rone, Rone. Here's the point. You have to improve upon something in order to hear something new. There, I said it. (wow, I feel like Brian from Family Guy). The problem is the core of your music: the vocals are dreadful. I've tried to be nice with my previous reviews as I want the same courtesy, and believe me, I am coming from a similar point of view as you: overall, not much changes from song to song that I write and when that happens, I can't expect anyone to say something new. What has to happen for me is to get better production, remove the flat/sharp notes in my vocals, and get a full band. What has to happen for you is #1, you have to sing COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU DO. Get some lessons, try screaming, anything but your nasally/flat delivery. If you can't do anything with that, then try to get someone else to sing for you. I will do it from time to time if you want. #2 Drop the whacked out dissonant sounds that inflict most of your songs ("Dry Spell" is a horribly good example of this).

Look, I was just reviewing some of your songs and saw your "Back From Juvie" which I labled in iTunes as 1 star and wrote "so bad it's worth keeping as an example". Why? #1 crappy singer, #2 horrible dissonance in the instrumentation, #3 no discernible melody.

To put it differently, you sound like a drunk man about to jump off a cliff who's tripping on acid and attempting to create music. In your head, it may be the greatest thing since Miley Cyrus, but in reality, that's just ridiculous.

You want something positive? I had 6 songs of yours in my iTunes and was looking for anything that was redeemable. I listened to Cost of Living, 9/11 Was an Inside Job, Dry Spell, False Positive, Back From Juvie, and Walking the Border. The only song that was remotely "good" was 9/11. Why? I think because you has little to no dissonance in the instrumentation.

So there are two main things to gleen from this:
#1) Stop bitching at everyone else. The moment you are thinking "everyone is against me" and it is true, then you have to start thinking that it is YOU that is the problem, not everyone else.
#2) Learn to sing or don't. You aren't growing any as a musician if everything continues to sound the same. If you can't get vocal lessons or you can't sing, DON'T DO IT ANYMORE. You will get better reviews if you just make instrumental songs (and we all know that is not acceptable here) or better yet, if you can get a vocalist to sing your song.

Say what you want to me, but remember, that just means that you aren't listening to anyone.

[Spud]

Here's my best advice. And this is coming from some whose reviews were just as bad as yours when we started.

Improve SOMETHING. ANYTHING. Pick one thing. How about those popping 'P's? You're spitting all over the microphone and it's really annoying. Concentrate on one thing at a time and fix it. Get a pop filter, or make one...

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/0 ... de_po.html
http://www.instructables.com/id/Homemade-pop-filter/
http://www.ehow.com/how_4758157_homemad ... rding.html

Then next week, find something else. I'm just saying, there are thousand things that you need to improve, and it seems like you aren't going away, so you might as well start picking them off one at at time. That's how you get better. Frankie once told us to buy a three-prong adapter. SO WE DID. Checked that one off the list. It hasn't come up since.

[Kapitano]

Ah, this is the point where the thread either turns into a pointless shouting match, or we discuss how Rone Rivendale can make better songs - without calling him completely untalented or paranoid.

On balance, I think the latter option is more useful.

Voice

* Rone has a nasal singing voice. So do I - though I try to minimise it. So do a lot of people, including a few successful pop singers. Not an issue.

* Rone doesn't have much range in his voice. Seemingly true, though not a major issue in itself. Most pop singers have a rather limited range. I say "seemingly true" because I suspect he hasn't wanted to try singing higher notes.

Rone, I think you should try, try seriously for more range, don't give up if it won't work after after an hour or two...but if it still won't work after a week, don't worry.

* Rone doesn't get the right pitch. This is the significant issue about singing. it does take practice, but Rone, it's not as difficult as you might think to train your voice to (most of the time) hit the right note in your natural range.

Try singing louder - that sometimes helps.

Try taking a week off where you just practice harmonising your voice to tones on a pentatonic scale. Just hit a note on your synth and try to pitch your voice singing "aah" or "mmm" to match it.

When I record vocals, I sing to a guide track that's just a reed organ and some sine-wave drums - the organ plays the "root" note of the chord of that particular bar, and I sing on it or around it.

And if someone like me who's never had a singing lesson and didn't even try to sing till age 32 can do it, you can.

If you don't want to do all that...

- try rapping instead of singing
- try giving us spoken word pieces with musical accompaniment
- use pitch correction software
- collaborate with a singer
- cut up some film dialogue or someone talking on the radio for your vocal

Music

Wages says your stuff's dissonant. He's heard more of your work than I have, but "crush" didn't seem dissonant.

It is very bare - kick and snare, voice and strings. Lush isn't necessarily better, but if your sound is sparse, you need good singing and good production. Just look at Ross Durand.

Try just using a few more instruments, but not all playing at once. If that's too much work, use a strummed guitar or lots of strings chords fading in and out.

Production

There's all sorts of techniques you can use to make even a bare, badly sung song a lot more listenable.

- Multitrack the vocals for part of the song, or use a harmoniser plugin.
- Add reverb - lots of quiet reverb is good if there's not much going on.
- EQ the voice to cut out the lowest 100Hz - so it doesn't occupy the same frequency range as the kick drum. Brings out both.
- Echo parts of the voice in time with the drums. And/or cut out the frequencies below 400 and above 1000 for a section to give a "telephone voice" effect.
- If you've got harmoniser or voice multiplier software, use it to turn your voice into your own backing singers, maybe just going "aah" in the background.

[rone rivendale]

Long thought out and helpful post.

Thank you. I appreciate the fact you took the time to review my works and giving me pointers on how to get better.

Way better than ignoring me or just telling me I sound the same as I always have, which is ridiculous.

[Spud]

It was suggested that the numerous lengthy posts aimed at helping our good friend Rone have moved beyond the definition of a review and into the area of tutorials, and they would be more useful (and clog up the review threads less) if they were gathered in one place. It is in this spirit that we present... the Rone Help Thread, or What To Do If You're Awful. Is that specific enough, JB?

[jast]

* Rone has a nasal singing voice. So do I - though I try to minimise it. So do a lot of people, including a few successful pop singers. Not an issue.

If you look at it that way, nothing is an issue. If you don't want to change something, that's your prerogative (but expecting different reviews if what you do doesn't change is still pointless). If you do want to change it but don't know how, it's not exactly "not an issue"... so the choice is basically: accept to keep things as they are and accept the consequences, or decide to change things, and keep working on it by trying different things. To the best of my knowledge, neither of these choices has been made here.
It's not really true that you can't help whether your voice is nasal, by the way. It all comes down to vocal technique.

* Rone doesn't have much range in his voice. Seemingly true, though not a major issue in itself. Most pop singers have a rather limited range. I say "seemingly true" because I suspect he hasn't wanted to try singing higher notes.

You can only have a range if you actually sing discernible notes.

Rone, I think you should try, try seriously for more range, don't give up if it won't work after after an hour or two...but if it still won't work after a week, don't worry.

Not worrying is a good start. On the other hand, I suggest trying to get a clearer and more powerful voice first, even if it's just speaking voice, then working on range.

- try rapping instead of singing
- try giving us spoken word pieces with musical accompaniment
- use pitch correction software

All of these require a clear voice for the end result to not sound like poo. I'm not saying these things because I like hating on Rone or anything like that... but there is simply not a lot that's more amateurish than muddy vocals. Which, I might add, is all I've ever heard from Rone.

If that's too much work, use a strummed guitar

You might want to reconsider that statement after listening to some of Rone's guitar-enhanced tracks in the archives.

- Multitrack the vocals for part of the song, or use a harmoniser plugin.

Neither of these make a song better if your vocals are horrible.

- Add reverb - lots of quiet reverb is good if there's not much going on.

Sweet green icing doesn't make cow dung that much tastier. I'm not alluding to anything here, of course.

- EQ the voice to cut out the lowest 100Hz - so it doesn't occupy the same frequency range as the kick drum. Brings out both.

Neither really obscures the other, but it definitely helps to get them separated a bit. I think that the thing outstanding mixing engineers tend to complain about most is a big mess of tracks that all half blend together.

Way better than ignoring me or just telling me I sound the same as I always have, which is ridiculous.

No, you don't always sound the same. Your vocals just haven't ever been good by any standard that I'm willing to consider, and I can say the same about your guitar playing. What exactly are you doing to work on getting better? I mean, you've received tons of suggestions during the time I've been a member of this community, and I haven't ever seen you react to any of the suggestions.

[Billy's Little Trip]

The title of this thread made me Rone out loud.

Pro: Rone has the passion to make music.
Con: He doesn't seem to take the advice given to him because he is defensive and thinks he is smarter than people that have numerous years of experience over him.

Pro: Rone is willing to try new things and bought a guitar
Con: He doesn't take it serious and hasn't learned how to play Stairway To Heaven yet.

Pro: Rone wants to have Melvin's love child.
Con: Melvin would have to see Rone nekid. ROL

[rone rivendale]

You can't honestly believe I haven't attempted to better myself.

When I started in SF, I hadn't even done a track with vocals before. My first SF entry used spoken word on a bare FruityLoops track. In fact the first several of my tracks included nothing more than spoken vocals over bare tracks. The term 'Roneing' was born from this in fact.

The first big change happened when I bought Rock Band and had so much fun playing the vocals part of the game. In fact 99% of the time I've spent on that game up to now has been vocals. My vocals became 10x better by singing on there.

There was of course the Guitar I bought in order to add to my music.

Then the next change happened when I started using my RB mic instead of the 10yr old stereo mic I had before. The vocals became much clearer (although it added the plosives).

And just a few months ago I took someone's advice and started to add EQ as well as mess with the panning on my songs.

So imagine my dismay when I hear people spew things like "You sound the same as you always did" or "You haven't even attempted to better yourself since you started".

And as far as this thread goes, I may not be in the same league as people like Paco or Ross (or Melvin) but I am NOT the only regular here that has less than stellar songs. I'm just the only one that people do this sort of thing with.

So, I'll continue to make music. Hopefully improve over time as I have up to this point. And maybe even get a decent review once in while. Let's not forget my Step On Me song was well received by ALOT of you, even if it wasn't a SF song.

[JonPorobil]

So, I'll continue to make music. Hopefully improve over time as I have up to this point. And maybe even get a decent review once in while. Let's not forget my Step On Me song was well received by ALOT of you, even if it wasn't a SF song.

"Step On Me" had something that no other Rone song I'd heard before then, and no other Rone song I've heard since, had: a melody. And even then, only in the chorus. You had a clear, catchy melody in the chorus (not the verses, which sounded... uh... Roney). I think you recognized that, because the vocal delivery was much more confident than in any other Rone song before it or after. The real shame of it is that you were unable to repeat that success.

Your "Crush" had the same hallmark as all the other Rone songs I've ever bashed on - cacophonous and inelegant instrumentation, singing with little to no melody (and thus, as a matter of course, off-key), poorly-played instruments, and poorly-recorded vocals. So yeah... your vocals have improved a little in the last four years. You no longer sound like you're swallowing the microphone, and the sibilants and plosives are less of a problem than they used to be. But you've got a long way to go before listenability.

If you want people to not skip over you in fights, you have to make a song that OTHER PEOPLE will WANT to listen to. Not something that they'll feel obligated to hear because it's in the fight, and which they'll review because they feel like they're obligated. And that's how it is, Rone: like it or not, the sad truth of the matter is, listening to your songs, for almost all reviewers, almost all the time, is a chore. We don't look forward to it. We want, very badly, to hit the "next button." Most of us eventually give in to that temptation.

You see, your "Crush" not only lacks any element to pull the listener in, engage us, make us want to care - it contains many elements that clash and appear to actively push us away. A lot of this is stuff that you supposedly can't fix: your voice sounds the way it does, and there's nothing you can do to change it. But you can learn a melody, practice it, and become familiar with it before bouncing the final recordings to mp3.

Listen to Boltoph's song this fight. To me, that song is a joy. The guitars are so crisp, so well-played. He knows what he's doing and where his song is going. He takes you by the hand and guides you into the little world his song occupies. There's a clear melody. He clearly practiced it a lot, EVEN THOUGH IT SOUNDS EFFORTLESS. It's amazing how much work goes into making a good song sound off-the-cuff.

Now listen to your "Crush." The first thing we hear is a really cheap-sounding artificial hi-hat, followed by your voice, without instrumental accompaniment, kind of talk-singing (and yes, the hiss of the mic, and the sound of your breathing and swallowing), until you're joined by an equally-cheap-sounding string set playing a keyless melody that seems to have nothing to do with the vocal melody. In fact, when the strings come in, you seem to lose what tenuous grasp of the melody you had to begin with. You know why? Because they clash with the vocal melody! Not only does that make it harder to sing, it makes it REALLY hard for us to listen to. This was as far as I made it.

So look: you want to know why people don't write good reviews of your songs? You want to know why people so often don't review you at all? Why they often don't even listen to your songs all the way through? Because we don't want to. And none of your bellyaching is going to make us want to listen. You have to make music worth listening to if you want us to want to come back to it. You're not entitled to our attention, our loving care, our criticisms, our reviews, our suggestions, or anything. And if you want better reviews, then pay more attention to the ones you've got, and keep improving until they no longer apply.

</rant>

[Reist]

The first big change happened when I bought Rock Band and had so much fun playing the vocals part of the game. In fact 99% of the time I've spent on that game up to now has been vocals. My vocals became 10x better by singing on there.

Rock Band doesn't teach tone. I got that game for christmas, and I can sing like Kermit the frog or a drunken pirate, and I can still get 90% on the songs. It might help you with your pitch, but definitely not tone (which is something people are suggesting you work on). Try pushing your vocals from the diaphram instead of just from your throat - it gives you a nasally head voice. It's possible to fix this - I sang pretty similar to you until I took some voice lessons. Push the vocals out with power from your core.

There was of course the Guitar I bought in order to add to my music.

I'd recommend picking up a chord book - you can get a cheap one at pretty much any music store. Learning some basic techniques could make your guitar playing more listenable, or even enjoyable.

Then the next change happened when I started using my RB mic instead of the 10yr old stereo mic I had before. The vocals became much clearer (although it added the plosives).

Then get a pop filter. As with the chord book, they're pretty dang cheap at music stores, and would make your vocals infinitely more listenable.

And just a few months ago I took someone's advice and started to add EQ as well as mess with the panning on my songs.

Good, keep messing with that stuff.

So imagine my dismay when I hear people spew things like "You sound the same as you always did" or "You haven't even attempted to better yourself since you started".

Most of your songs have dissonant string sounds and fake drums with little or no groove - all the way back to Brimming With Tears you were doing that. It's a distinctive trait of your music, and it hasn't really evolved since 2005, so can you really blame people for claiming "you sound the same as you always did"?

And as far as this thread goes, I may not be in the same league as people like Paco or Ross (or Melvin) but I am NOT the only regular here that has less than stellar songs.

And you're not the only one who can (or likely will) benefit from this thread. But seriously dude, (as far as I know) it was you who coined the term "roneing" for a monotone, unengaging vocal style - can you blame people for wanting to help you improve?

I'm just the only one that people do this sort of thing with.

Nope - I sucked ass at music for a long time, and I've had at least four threads of this sort set up to help me improve. Use these threads as a chance to improve, not an excuse to become defensive.

So, I'll continue to make music.

Good.

Hopefully improve over time as I have up to this point.

I hope you use this thread as a chance to improve at a faster rate than you have in the past. There's a lot of helpful advice here.

And maybe even get a decent review once in while.

Nobody owes anyone a decent review. It's up to you to create something other people might enjoy.

Let's not forget my Step On Me song was well received by ALOT of you, even if it wasn't a SF song.

Yeah, that's an alright song. But don't dwell on the past - each song leads to the next, and you need to learn from positive reviews too. I personally enjoy the chorus of Step On Me because it has a discernable melody (note - discernable melody > roneing). Learn from this, and incorporate things that people enjoyed about your past songs into your new material. And if people downright hate something, try something new.

I hope this was helpful. Just from one improving songfighter to another. We've been at SF pretty much the same amount of time, and we both sucked when we started, so I'm cheering for you here. But you need to listen to criticism and consciously grow from it. Otherwise people will still moan about your entries in 2015. And none of us want that.

[Billy's Little Trip]

There is one tiny thing that all us conformists need to also confront. Rone may be God.

[Billy's Little Trip]

WAIT!!!! I heard they're not allowed to lie!

.....Rone Rivendale, are you God?

[rone rivendale]

LOL, no. I am definitely not God.

Okie, I have one question since we're taking this time to put me under a magnifying glass and all.

Reist brought up my FL beats as one thing that has stayed the same since the beginning. Do you believe that I can not deliver a good song without buying a drum set? Because I gotta tell you, that's probably not going to happen. If fake drums is going to be the deterrent that keeps people away from my song that's not good...

[ujnhunter]

That's not what Reist said... read it again.

[Reist]

Reist brought up my FL beats as one thing that has stayed the same since the beginning. Do you believe that I can not deliver a good song without buying a drum set? Because I gotta tell you, that's probably not going to happen. If fake drums is going to be the deterrent that keeps people away from my song that's not good...

No, the programmed drum beats are not the only deterrent in your music. I really hope you're reading the posts above and learning from them - not just skimming and nitpicking the minute details in an effort to appear musically competent. That would be beyond lame.

**regains composure**

Rone, there are many, many great songs out there with fake drums. Your drums lack oomph and groove, but groove is absolutely achievable with fake drums. You just need to learn some basics about drum programming and how to create a groove. Listen to some hip hop and emulate the beats you hear. If you're wanting to make rock (you have a guitar), pick up a drum basics book at a music store and program some of the basic rock beats you see there.

This is all achievable, but you need to listen to criticism and turn it into productivity.

[rone rivendale]

Oh no, I read all of your post. I picked that out just because that is something that I can't replace. I can't do real drums since i don't own any and don't have the money to get any. So I just wanted to know if having fake drums was a 'deal breaker' for you. That's all.

I'll work on my programming skills.

[HansGruber]

Hey there Roner, it's been a long time. I caught wind of this discussion elsewhere and thought I'd chime in if my opinion can be of any help. All the things you mentioned above to 'improve' yourself were just acquiring stuff - Rock Band, new guitar, eq, etc. They all can help, but they're not going to fix anything. What you need to do is learn to be a better musician - do the hard work and take some lessons and practice. Maybe take some poetry lessons to help with the lyrics.

I'm not really any good myself in the talent department, but I enjoy making music as much as you do. I've found that the practice has helped improve me, though - and I ended up writing and recording far better songs as a result.

If I were you I'd consider not recording for a while (I often don't, just play/practice), and learn to play that guitar, even if it's just a few chords, and get someone to teach you a little theory. Do the same with your voice. Bob Dylan ain't no sparrow either, but he sure as hell makes it work.

So if you really do love the music, and respect it and the spirit of the community here, put the time in to learn a little of the art. I'd like nothing more than to hear you return from a sabbatical with some skills, and some truly different (and true) songs.

[Ross]

I'll work on my programming skills.

It's not about programming skills, it's about programming choices.

[Ross]

Rone today only - get one of these - excellent price and it will improve your sound, even with an inexpensive mic

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/stupid

January 21 only!!!