Ready the polygraph! (Keep All Your Promises reviews)

[Manhattan Glutton]

I'm confused. Where did they say that dance ISN'T loopy? They just said your song was too loopy for their tastes. They may not like dance music at all. That is there their prerogative. You can't win them all. And I for one did like your song.

Being one of the persons who said "too loopy", allow me to jump in and make a brilliant clarification before this discussion loops out of control. Looping itself is not the problem. Dance music is not the problem. There are plenty of variations you can put over a loop that will make it not feel as repetitious, and there are plenty of variations you can throw into a pattern so that it's 16 or 24 seconds repeated for 3 minutes instead of 8 seconds repeated for 3 minutes. Maybe make that loop go A A B A or A B A C instead of A (A A A A). The idea is not to throw out the loops and make a country song, but to augment and vary the loops to keep the listener's attention. If you take a look at any popular dance song, it will exhibit these characteristics and use little tricks to vary things up. When I say that a song's too loopy, it's not that I don't enjoy it, but that it has plenty of potential room for improvement. We've all submitted songs where we didn't put enough thought into adding little features and additional instrumental tracks, and we've all gotten criticized for it. We've all dug in and become defensive about it, because hey, we're musicians and that's how we operate. But if we don't all improve together, what are we really here for? Certainly not the fame and recognition.

Not entirely sure what this means, do we sound like a previous Song Fighter who was as bad as us? Or are you confused about our numbers? There are two of us, I thought that would have been obvious as I'm from the US and Poncho is from the UK. Thanks for the attention.

My deepest apologies if you've never submitted before; you sound remarkably similar to another regular. I retract my bitter, belligerent criticism and hereby submit mild disapproval accompanied with optimistic encouragement. Welcome to the rodeo!

[Spintown]

I posted my review of the round on my blog just a few minutes ago. There's a couple items before the review, so just scroll down a little & you'll see it. Good work with this latest round. If anyone makes a video for their song, I'm more then happy to include it.

http://spintown79.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... -your.html

[Reist]

I has drumcam!

[Spintown]

Cool, I just added you to the page.

[wyrfxrssn]

Not entirely sure what this means, do we sound like a previous Song Fighter who was as bad as us? Or are you confused about our numbers? There are two of us, I thought that would have been obvious as I'm from the US and Poncho is from the UK. Thanks for the attention.

My deepest apologies if you've never submitted before; you sound remarkably similar to another regular. I retract my bitter, belligerent criticism and hereby submit mild disapproval accompanied with optimistic encouragement. Welcome to the rodeo!

Thank you very much.

[Madren]

Manhattan Glutton, way to kill two birds with one stone. Thanks for the clarification of "repetitiveness".

The grammar-samurai in me is nearly ashamed enough to commit seppuku though. The language part of my brain was NOT thinking last night.

[roymond]

If you've ever been to a music store, that's where it would be. I'm not talking about music you dance to. I'm not stupid enough to think that. Old people, Jesus!

What are these "music stores" you speak of?

Manhattan Glutton gave the constructive comments I should have.

[AJOwens]

MIster Mann asked,
could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by repetitive?

Manhattan Glutton's excellent observation applies. Virtually all structured music is repetitious by nature, but the repeated elements can be of different lengths, and they can and do employ variation. Think of Three Blind Mice -- we have the three notes, repeated, then transposed and repeated; then something noticeably different, which is also repeated; then the first three notes, repeated. A timeless classic, but without the transposition and contrast it would not work. It's also very short, because there's not a lot you can do with it before you wear out its ideas.

Your song uses a three-beat rhythmic pattern in the guitar, without any contrast or relief. This pattern is extremely simple, so it soon becomes monotonous. You do change the notes, which is good, but something always happens: you play one thing four times, then another thing four times; then you do it again. There are two patterns you do this with, and by and large you alternate them. Each pattern has its own vocal melody, again with a quite simple rhythm. Simplicity can be very effective, but here, It's as if we're looking out a train window at a landscape with a few low hills and an occasional tree; good for a photo, not good to watch for five minutes.

When you introduce a livelier melody, it's like the third section of Three Blind Mice, -- but by then it's long overdue. You also break from the steady alternation of the first and second patterns to keep going with the second pattern (in a still larger repeated pattern). And sometimes you add instruments to the second pattern, which revives interest. These are all moves in the right direction.

[PonchoP]

As the other half of WTFBBS, I echo wyr's earlier comments. Thanks to all for the constructive criticism! We know we're bad, but hopefully that will change with time and we enjoy it anyway.

My deepest apologies if you've never submitted before; you sound remarkably similar to another regular. I retract my bitter, belligerent criticism and hereby submit mild disapproval accompanied with optimistic encouragement. Welcome to the rodeo!

Thanks! We have never submitted before. What is the regular that we sound like called? It'd be nice to hear them [and see what not to do?]

[Lucky Spoon]

My apologies if you got "rubber stamped." I'm not the greatest reviewer and get bored trying to listen to everyone's songs enough to give them valid reviews. If you'd like a better one, let me know (or passively bitch about it until i listen to your song more closely and give it a more heart felt review/constructive criticism).

Adam This song isn't on the list of songs I've been listening to again and again... but now that I'm taking a listen I think it could be. It goes with the theme of many of the other songs in this week's fight that are kind "dreamy" as I put it. Kinda slow to get started/go anywhere... probably why I kept skipping it. If you started the song right at 0:20 I think it would grab more.

architectofdesire Totally digging this song. Though it seems like it should be on the Save the Last Dance sound track (or somewhere in the movie... at least the song intro... montage of getting better at dance and staying tru to hip hop wut!) a good combination of smooth feel with a rockin/hip-hop beat/hook.

Balance Lost Not bad. The ding ding xylophone stuff is a nice touch. subjective rubber stamp: not memorable.

Heidi barton Stink 1 Linkin Park. Fortunately I like the linkin park stuff that everyone else hates (i.e. the remix/rap stuff). This songs a bit lacking though... nothing draws me in.

chthonicyouth Nice grungy/rock sound. This sounds like a song on a CD I would get back in the day when I was part of a CD club and I'd just get all these random CDs that I listened to once or twice. I might go through a phase with this song, but I wouldn't listen to it that much.

c.layne slllloooooooowwww start. where is this song going, I ask... and it "kicks" in with some... porno music? Maybe background music for some weird movie where a guy is walking through a run down town in a 3rd world country and seeing poverty as he tries to stay focused on his unrelated task, but can't help but be affected by the things he sees. As a song... it doesn't really go anywhere... doesn't really grab me.

Cobalt Stomach synth, drums, vox, RUBBER STAMP!

forunesfavorite unfortunate placement after cobalt's failure to synthesize..... hmm or should i say appropriate. vocals are too quiet.

The Interchangables ok song. vocals are painfully out of tune in a lot of places

James Owens Nice voice, nice piano playing. The 2nd half of verse (chords) reminds me of vocal solo contests from high school. This song needs to kick in a lot more. Drums are quiet... I'd have liked it if they came in with a big fill and the vocal energy went through the roof on the chorus.

Jeff Robertson and the Newo-Candylanders Classic boogie/rock. Sounds good, recorded good. It falls into the dreaded subjective category of "didn't really grab me"

King Arthur Classic oldies rock. see previous review.

Lynette Lewis I think you did a good job with your song style you were shooting for. Production-wise, I like the synth/loop sounds and the vocals sound. Performance-wise, your vocals sound a bit timid. You could definitely go places with this song. Make it kick in bigger and give it that pop/dance sound of today.

Lucky Spoon Double bass thrasher makes me lurf! Did anyone catch the Animal Farm reference? powerful!!!!

Xtravar Someone nailed it when they said this was They Might Be Giants... your production skills always annoy me with envy.

MENBAH! nice tight chords on the intro. drums are off and awkward. vox a bit timid. double track vox to make them pop more with a poppy song.

Mister Mann Ok, aside from the usual arbitrary SF ding of a song being >3 min long and it being thin... This song is nice in a way. I think I would listen to this if I were in high school and in a emo mood (after my 2 week gf broke up with me or someone shoved me in the lunch room) I would lay in my bedroom and listen to this song and think about the good/bad/meaning of life. In simple terms: it has a nice mood to it.

Montana Fudge with James Peen exit only. no thanks.

Ross Durand Amazing. you get that dreamy mood that falls into the same category as I wrote with mister mann (sorta) and mix it with a great performance, production, and structure.

State Shirt you're quickly becoming one of my favorite song fighters... hope to see you in more. love your voice in this song. very dreamy. LOVE your chord progressions. The heavy parts are kinda like looking a beautiful painting with a grenade duck-taped to it. You admire the beauty, then your eyes move to the grenade, and you become uneasy and hope the pin doesn't fall out... then back to the painting... But since this is song fight, I like that you try stuff like this just to push boundaries.

Styop Quoons hahaha - is this in ref to the comment about 10 minute songs with mistuned guitars and random midi sounds? if so, many lols.

Therman like the crunch on the guitar. fits the song. lead could be a bit crisper. Good song in that I don't skip it when I'm working and it comes out. Not too memorable as I zone out through it and pay attention when torrentz comes on after it.

torrentz Blood Hound Gang! Totally!!! (especially the 2nd verse) love it love it love. maybe Alice in Chains-esk choruses. Beginning of the song is "Keep All Your Promisessss 104X FM, (lighting sound), [deep dj voice]Rock and Roll" don't deny!

Ux Mpuzm Ding ding weird low vocals. is this sung by a zombie walrus in the center of the earth?

Wages The chord changes in this song sounds like you're just learning to play the guitar, not a real sense of rhythm but after some thought (and looking at the chord chart) you make it to the next one. Vocals are pitchy... FX doesn't cover this up.

The Weakest Suit adding lasers to a G&G to spice it up is like adding bacon bits to a cake. try making some tastier frosting. (You're not Green Day, this isn't Time of Your Life, if you screw the intro up... edit it out)

WTFBBS welcome to songfight... as you may have already guessed, crappy songs over NES music has been done.

Song that i keep coming back to (gold stars/arbitrarily like): LML, Lucky Spoon, Manhattan Glutton, Ross Durand, State Shirt, torrentz.

Vote worthy: architect, chthonicyouth, Jeff Robertson, King Arthur, LML, Lucky Spoon, Manhattan Glutton, Ross Durand, State Shirt, Therman, torrentz

Cut at the last moment: Adam, James Owens, Mister Mann

[Manhattan Glutton]

Thanks! We have never submitted before. What is the regular that we sound like called? It'd be nice to hear them [and see what not to do?]

To see what not to do, off the top of my head, look at: MC Joebudy, Original King Kong. lol maybe the joke's on me and these are different people.

To give you a real review: I think a major problem with your recording is the mic, as you said. It makes you come across as nasally and emphasizes unpleasant speech sounds. The other major problem is you need a better instrumentation track. You can still use your Nintendo for samples... but not the whole darn song. You need some thumping bass. Finally, just the idea in general is more of a quaint spouting of limericks over a quaint loop of midi rather than a song-like endeavor. In other words, not something I would rock out in my car to. So, the first step is to get the tools you need and learn how to use them. The second step is to solidify your musical vision - maybe try covering some songs you like to get some practice and ideas.

[wyrfxrssn]

WTFBBS welcome to songfight... as you may have already guessed, crappy songs over NES music has been done.

Well next time we won't be so crappy. Thanks for the welcome.

[Fortunato]

Not to be presumptuous but it seems like the courteous thing to do is post reviews and your thoughts, so I hope you'll forgive my opinions even if it's negative or not 100% positive here, also thanks everyone for your feedback.

+A far off land: Couldn't understand the lyrics. That said, I hope you'll forgive me for liking your vibe which is very pink floydy, although it sounds so much like Us and Them that it's almost halfway between style parody and strong influence. Voted.

Archetechts of desire: NOt sure about that harpsichord sound. Also not a fan of the reverse cymbal, really, though the faux string wasn't bad. Nothing really caught me in the song.

Balance lost: nice guitar, nice harmonica. Work on the singing, though I've heard worse. I think I have a problem with the second person in song lyrics.

Heidi/Barton Stink: The rap doesn't really flow and feels disconnected. Also suffers from a lack of variety (like mine).

Bingey Swirley: Good recording. Percussion is kinda arbitrary. Subject matter is pretty cliche. Also really really long. Now I know how people feel when I sub long entries; I'll keep it shorter guys.

Cthonic Youth: Man, people can't avoid writing love songs for a title with "you" in it can they. That said, well recorded guitar and drums. As far as your band is concerned, you just don't feel that together. Not BAD per se, but just not connected to each other.

+C Layne: Again with the love song. Voted for the strong, wierd ending which I liked a lot. Also v well recorded.

Cobalt Stomach: quite a lot in the percussion, maybe even too much; it makes the song sound hasty in a way that doesn't really click with your lyrics.

Fortune's Fave: lolme. FIX YOUR DAMN SNARE. DO SHIT WITH THE VOCAL MORE THAN JUST ONE EFFECT THAT NEVER CHANGES. FIX YOUR CHORD SYNTH. Like the arp & bass though. No excuse for a long song that doesn't change enough without any strong changes until near the end. Also drop the beat more; Some of the nicest sections are when the beat stops its merciless march.

The Interchangeables: Good guitar. Vocal needs some work. Without a stronger vocal it's hard for me to vote for this, although you did take the lyrics in a fun direction. I laughed every time you pointed out what the last man was lacking (better car, bigger house). Needs a slightly stronger vocal but keep up the fun lyrics.

+James Owens: Well dammit, I have to vote for the quality of production here. Dunno why you brought the drums in at all, or the bass, although I guess they fill out the mix a little, or the synth strings. Personally I think it could have lived without the strings at all. Also it might just be me, but a vocal this gentle over accompaniment this agressive feels overproduced.

+Jeff Robertson & neocandylanders: You guys sound very together. If it's just you jeff well then you do a great job of sounding like a whole band. Also you (or your singer?) sound like Ozzie. I bet you sing mean black sabbath covers. Voted because of the together sound and the vocal.

King Arthur: Polished production. Maybe even too much; imo it's possible to overproduce and overpolish sometimes. That and I'm just not a fan of this style. I don't care much for jimmy buffett (if I had to name an artist who you're emulating.) Unfortunately I'm just not happy enough with the song itself, in spite of your obivious polish.

Lynette Lewis: Again, second person. Also same thing on me applies here: better synths more variety. Also with a synth that agressive you could really open up the percussion; it's much too gentle for that synth.

+Lucky Spoon: Very cool. Funny. Hot production. I hope you win. World needs more funny metal songs about politicians lying.

+Manhattan Glutton: Nice backing vocals and chorus. Why did you decide to use synth brass in the middle? I still have yet to hear a decent synth brass. You sound like wierd al here. Voted why not.

MENBAH!: nope. I don't like mayer. Also the break sounds like everything is trying to solo at once. And work on your rhythm programming imo.

+Mister Mann: Tasteful additions under the guitar help give this weight. I like the subtle effects and it's pleasantly sad. Voted.

Montana Fudge with James Peen: Piano is too low, so is vocal. Good drums. Hahahaha, very funny take on the lyrics, where I expected just another cheesy love song. Also could be stronger in the vocals. OH GOD SYNTH SAX NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. This should have ended before the synth sax solo.

+Ross Durand: Extremely clever lyrics. Nice to hear someone making a song that has nothing to do with love and is clever. Also respect to your production but it's so clean that I'm kinda wishing there was something to make it grungier.

+State Shirt: Well man, nice. Great variety within the song. Lotsa polish. I really don't have any comments on what I'd change or improve. I don't like it quite as much as LS's song but I still like it.

Sytop Quoons: very funny. I don't think you were really going for votes with this, but hey it's nice and wierd if nothing else, and it's obvious that you can make something tuneful and pretty when you want to. It's a clever piece.

Suckweasel: Y'know given the number of variations on boy-with-guitar entries songfight recieves I'm surprised there are so many complaints about electronic stuff. I guess it's a personal taste thing. As for you suckweasel, very polished, well recorded and nice but frankly just another boy with guitar song to me. Thanks for the brevity though. ANd that last little aside is nice.

Therman: The distorted solo thing in the middle is cool but there's so many good people this week I have to have something more.

+Torrentz: Wow. Jeeze the quality doesn't stop this week. Awesome chorus. Voted for the cool chorus and the very well mastered vocals and everything else. If there's one thing I'd like, it's something besides guitars underneath. There's all kinds of public domain samples available.

Ux Mpuzm: Cute song, but the production leaves me wanting more. Good drums, though I don't hear much variety in the loop itself. I'm glad the bass works. Too long also.

Wages: off key singing and as I said to suckweasel just another boy with guitar. Also work on rhythm imo.

Weakest suit: Another boy with guitar.

WTFBBS: Yep, echoin' the rest. NeS sounds are Cute, work on your rappin and your mastering.

[Manhattan Glutton]

Why did you decide to use synth brass in the middle? I still have yet to hear a decent synth brass. You sound like wierd al here. Voted why not.

'Cause the synth sax sounded even worse. The trumpet seemed tolerable and just as fruity, so heck, why not!

Do you know how many comparisons I've gotten to Weird Al in the last year? I suppose there are worse things to sound like. It's really starting to tarnish my hardcore image!

[LML]

Well I understand there is no point to trying to please everyone, I'm just torn over what it is that anybody actually likes about my music in the first place. I do something with a more aggressive style a la It Belongs To Me, and it doesn't have enough bass, and it's too trebly and I sound like a 12 year old. I do something more organic with guitar and it's too organic. I hear "good vocals but..." all the time. I'm sure these comments would be constructive criticism but it's so varying from so many different perspectives I'm torn about what direction to take my music in. There doesn't seem to be any consensus on my style, because I'm trying to change it to please people. To be honest I'm exhausted. So I hear a bunch of the same shit, and I get a little cross and short and act like a sarcastic bitch because frankly, I'm frustrated. So if you really want to help me, try to give me criticism that isn't ALL negative and tell me what you actually like that I do. If that's nothing, don't bother. I don't care.

</rant>

[AJOwens]

Well I understand there is no point to trying to please everyone. . .
</rant>

You got it right the first time! Ive had some comments that my production needs to be bigger, and then Fortune's Favorite says it doesn't need the bass, drums, or strings. My reaction? I dont mind. The different perspectives just give more depth to the reviews.

You aren't by any chance taking this too personally, are you? We're here to help each other improve. Not everyone in this world is a master of the diplomatic arts, so if the suggestions come in with a rough edge, just put it down to clumsiness. It's well-meant.

[EDIT]

There doesn't seem to be any consensus on my style, because I'm trying to change it to please people.

THis is where you're going wrong! Change what you do to please yourself. Get ideas from us.

[LML]

It's not any particular thing someone has said, I've been doing songfight since 2006, and I only have a gaggle of songs that I've actually done. I think it's more frustration that I can't smooth out the rough edges because there is something always wrong about every song. Believe me, I'm my own worst critic--I listen to my songs over 100 times so I can see where I made mistakes long after I turn them into song fight. I just think people need to get a little more realistic with their expectations; we only have a week and I don't have very much time after work to make these projects how I want to. I just feel like I'm not improving. It's irritating, because I'm a perfectionist, and I feel like all my songs are shit. Ironically, I come back years later and people are hailing my shitty songs as being "the best of 2007" ect ect. They might be the best, but it wasn't enough to get votes at the time. Then there's vote flooding, and favorites. I think if we were to make the artist name completely obscured voting would be a little more fair. But I could go on all day about this. Hence why I don't have 5 thousand songs in my archives.

[LML]

I posted my review of the round on my blog just a few minutes ago. There's a couple items before the review, so just scroll down a little & you'll see it. Good work with this latest round. If anyone makes a video for their song, I'm more then happy to include it.

http://spintown79.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... -your.html

Not trying to attack you here, but listing your favorites from 1-5 is not a review. It's just a list.

[Teplin]

I'm sure these comments would be constructive criticism but it's so varying from so many different perspectives I'm torn about what direction to take my music in. There doesn't seem to be any consensus on my style, because I'm trying to change it to please people. To be honest I'm exhausted.

I agree with AJ, this is where you're going wrong. The appreciation of music is so subjective, of course there's no consensus. We're all different people with different tastes. Even if any given two of us can agree that they like a particular song, they may not agree on what they like about it. Music is complex. People are complex. At the end of the day, the only opinion about your music that really matters is yours. What direction should you take your music in? The one that excites YOU the most. Or the several that excite you the most, you don't have to limit yourself to just one. Forget for a moment what anybody likes about your music... what do YOU like about your music? What don't you like? That's how you're going to find your musical direction.

And yeah, I understand about the perfectionist thing, I've got it too. I can hear huge, glaring problems in every song I've ever recorded. I don't think I'll ever record something that sounds perfect to me, and I have to learn to be ok with that otherwise I'll never finish anything again. I'm talking to myself as much as I am to you now, because I've been in a dry spell ever since I entered "Dry Spell". We may not be able to make our songs sound perfect to us, but it's still worth doing, right? It's what we love doing. And we'll improve if we keep doing it... our more recent songs will start sounding a bit better to us than our older songs. And if they don't, we'll figure out what it was about the old songs that made them sound better, and we'll move in that direction.

Reviews can be good for pointing out things that we might not have noticed, but you've got to check everything that's suggested against your vision as an artist, and discard anything you don't agree with. Nevermind if Reviewer A thinks your song doesn't have enough bass... do YOU think you'd like your song better with the bass turned up? If so, great... the reviewer helped you see something you might not have noticed on your own. If not, trust your own instincts and leave the bass where it is. Make your music for you, and especially don't take the voting seriously around here, or you're going to end up disappointed!

[Manhattan Glutton]

Oh my gosh, I'm going to regret this.

I just think people need to get a little more realistic with their expectations; we only have a week and I don't have very much time after work to make these projects how I want to.

We're all supposed to put on the kid gloves and not give as much feedback as possible, but...

I just feel like I'm not improving.

... you want feedback to improve so you can...

They might be the best, but it wasn't enough to get votes at the time. Then there's vote flooding, and favorites.

... win a fight?

Do you realize that winning a fight here is like being king of the turd mountain? Yeah, it's pretty fun and exciting, but so is finding a dollar bill. People forget the very next week; nobody cares. Often times, the songs people like aren't even the ones that win. I have a good spattering of songs in my car from most the regulars - examples: you, Berkeley, Paco, and yes, even Deetak.

Probably 50% of the people here will recognize an actual good song when they hear it. If you want to convince the other half, you have to put make-up and dress clothes on it. If you aren't willing to do that, then what's the point of caring about those lost listeners? It's seriously like going out on a first date and not caring how you look or smell, and then being pissed off when they didn't see "the beauty inside". Things just don't work like that.

You know, criticism may be the highest form of flattery, because someone actually cares about the outcome of your endeavors. The really bad songs, and the people that absolutely never improve? They just get dismissed and skipped over.

So, now that this thread has turned into a Lifetime drama, where are the rest of our lazy reviewers?

[ujnhunter]

I may post reviews tomorrow, if no one gets offended... I'm not trying to be mean... hey I just posted in the fdrink thread! Um... yeah, good post Teplin! Also, I too have my own selection of favorites, that never seem to win fights... and that is not the measuring stick in my book. Deetak is one of my most favorite fighters and yet I see criticism constantly... heck I have some LML tunes in my favorites library as well... just keep on making the music that YOU like as my friend Teplin says... that's all that matters.

[jeff robertson]

The Candylanders were a bunch of people that I knew in college that everybody made fun of because they didn't drink or do drugs. Everybodu said they just played Candyland (the board game) instead of partying.

The Neo-Candylanders were a group of kids that started school a couple of years later that had some similarities.

None of them are currently members of "Jeff robertsom and the neo-candylanders". Its just me and my computer. Damn loneley way to rock and roll.

As for the thread here about criticism, ever since that one time Blue Lang used the word "good" in regards to one aspect of one song, I no longer am hurt by bad reviews. Once you get a "meh" from Blue instead of "it sucks", you have a lifetime pass.