Midi recording and blowing my brains out

[wages]

I got a midi controller and I thought that it would be a revelation in my songwriting. So far, that is far from the case. Why? I don't really grasp the entire studio thing. That is, I can't figure out how to fix latency issues, even though I've installed ASIO4ALL and tried understanding what I'm supposed to do (I don't at all!). Audacity doesn't do midi recordings, so something easy to use is out of my grasp. When using Sony Acid Pro, one time I managed to hear sound coming from the program, but the latency was incredibly bad. So I found Mixcraft 4 which worked easily with the midi controller and no latency. However, its nagging me to register, and the software still isn't as easy to use as I had hoped.

My question: what is the easiest way for me to get my studio working well? I want to be able to sit down at the computer, turn on my recording equipment, open the program, and hit record. I don't want to do a bunch of setting up or any other B.S. every time I start. I don't want to have to record using multiple programs, exporting files into a master mixing program. I say NO! So, I need help with ease of use for a low patience musician who can't handle a bunch of technical speak or understanding.

What equipment do I have?
*Windows PC running Vista (ugg) on a quad-core processor
*Soundblaster Audigy card
*Behringer UMX61 Midi Keyboard Controller (it runs USB into the computer)
*guitars into amps, mics into preamp; both into 8channel mixer then into the computer's soundcard

Software I've tried:
*Sony Acid Pro 5 - horrible latency, can't figure out how to fix it with ASIO4ALL. Plus the program gets extra sounds for unknown reasons
*Audacity - same horrible latency and no midi recording
*Mixcraft 4 - no latency, but needs registration to continue, and there's a learning curve that is too frustrating to continue, so I can't justify buying the software at this point
*Sound Forge 9 - I don't even know what this does really. I have tried it out. It reads "midi" in various places, but I can't figure out how to get any sound to record

What exactly I need to do:
*record analog from my guitars and mic
*have no latency issues
*record midi with the analog files (with the ability to fix my bad timing either automatically or by my editing the notes in a visual way)
*mix it all down to WAV and/or MP3
*optionally: loop recordings in a visual, easy interface (I like the way Acid Pro does the looping)
*easy, easy, easy; little to no technical understanding required
*bonus: be able to fix notes in my vocals (I know it can be done, but have no idea how to accomplish this)

I very much appreciate simple, easy to understand help on this. Your ears will thank you if I can start making better recordings. Thanks in advance for your expert help!

[AJOwens]

Lots of questions! First let me say that I can sit down, start the PC, open my recording program, set up a recording track, and go, with no latency problems. The recording program does not have MIDI suppot. If I use a program with MIDI support, I can record analog OK, but I have an issue generating MIDI input. I'm mostly there, but as far as I'm concerned it's all luck and magic.

You say you have an Audigy and you're using ASIO4ALL. Have you tried the kx drivers?
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=125939

Next, are you using the onboard sound card at all? Don't. Go to your Windows Sound and Audio settings and make sure your default recording and playback are set to use the Audigy. Even better, go to your BIOS and disable the onboard sound card, just to be sure it's completely out of the equation.

I don't know about the recording programs you mention, but usually you can set the recording and playback cards there too. Make sure you're using the Audigy in those programs.

At this point, if the Audigy and the kx drivers get along, you should not have any latency issues.

If you want to double-check, download a trial copy of Multiquence. It's what I use. No MIDI support though.
http://www.goldwave.com/mqrelease.php

The interface is not the most intuitive you'll ever see, but when you add a recording track you can select your recording card, and fom one of the menus you can set your playback card. Try Multiquence with the Audigy. If you get latency, you'll need another sound card. (The m-Audio 2496 is an excellent choice.)

[AJOwens]

As for recording analog to MIDI, if this is possible, it's news to me. I think to record MIDI you need to send MIDI codes using a MIDI controller. There are things out there that you can attach to a guitar to generate MIDI codes from the notes you play, but unless you have one of those I don't see how you'd do this.

My MIDI controller came with Reason Adapted software, which does two things. First, it provides sound synthesis modules, so that I can get analog output from the MIDI keyboard. The analog appears at the output of my 2496 soundcard, which I can select as a recording-track source in Multiquence. Thus, if I want violins, I set up the synth and record an analog track. This is where my other recording SW, a recently aquired Cubase LE, fails me. To use the synth without latency, I have to assign my 2496 ASIO drivers to Reason Adapted, but then Cubase LE can't find an ASIO card to use. My workaround would be to use two ASIO sound cards, one for Reason and one for Cubase, but my other sound card (a Tascam 122 Mark II) picks up some noise on the USB connection.

Second, Reason Adapted includes a MIDI recorder, so that if I want to, I can record and edit the MIDI codes, assing them to different voices, and play them back. I did use this once to build a MIDI-driven recording, which I simply played back through the 2496 analog outs and recorded to Multiquence.

Did your controller come with synth and MIDI recording SW?

[AJOwens]

Come to think of it, my Multiquence playback is set to use the onboard card, which I have hooked up to the tape in/out connections on my amp. When overtracking, I select the tape monitor on the amp. I don't think I've tried it with MQ playback set to the 2496 (which is going to an aux input on the amp).

[Lunkhead]

AJOwens, have you looked into using ReWire? ReWire lets you route MIDI from Cubase to Reason and audio from Reason into Cubase. You set up a MIDI channel in Cubase, have the input set to your MIDI controller, and the output set to a device in your Reason rack. Then there's a ReWire control panel where you activate some audio input channels from reason and those show up in your Cubase mixer. I use it with Cubase 4 and Reason 4, so I'm not 100% sure that it will work with Reason Adapted and Cubase 4 LE. It's a bit wonky in that it is supposed to activate "automatically" if you start the programs in the right order (first Cubase, then Reason).

Wages, it may be that the easiest way to get all the features you're looking for is to wait for a good deal on a USB audio/MIDI interface that comes with Cubase LE and has direct/zero-latency monitoring support.

[ujnhunter]

Step 1: Upgrade to Windows 7 from Vista...
Step 2: Try a program like Reaper
Step 3: Setup a template project file, i.e. empty tracks setup for your normal basics Vocals/Drums/Guitar/Bass etc...
Step 4: ...

Edit: Also... MIDI has nothing to do with ASIO, one is MIDI note data, i.e. ON/OFF triggers and the other is Digital Audio... MIDI contains zero audio. Therefore if you are using a MIDI controller you shouldn't be installing ASIO4ALL, in fact I wouldn't install ASIO4ALL unless your Hardware's (actually audio hardware, not midi controllers) drivers were not supported for some reason.

[AJOwens]

AJOwens, have you looked into using ReWire? . . .

thanks for the tip! I'll look into it.

[wages]

As for recording analog to MIDI, if this is possible, it's news to me.

Did your controller come with synth and MIDI recording SW?

LOL I didn't mean recording analog TO midi, I meant recording both types of inputs in the same program (so, I can record a midi part, and then while that is playing back, I can record guitar/vocals "analog"). But if I could do midi through my guitar, well, that would be amazing shit!

The controller did come with software, but unfortunately my CDROM drive is practically dead and can't install it. I tried finding it to download on the Behringer's website, but that didn't work for some reason and I just gave up (I do that a lot).

I have not tried KX drivers, but I will look at that as soon as I can.

AJOwens, have you looked into using ReWire? ReWire lets you route MIDI from Cubase to Reason and audio from Reason into Cubase. You set up a MIDI channel in Cubase, have the input set to your MIDI controller, and the output set to a device in your Reason rack. Then there's a ReWire control panel where you activate some audio input channels from reason and those show up in your Cubase mixer. I use it with Cubase 4 and Reason 4, so I'm not 100% sure that it will work with Reason Adapted and Cubase 4 LE. It's a bit wonky in that it is supposed to activate "automatically" if you start the programs in the right order (first Cubase, then Reason).

Wages, it may be that the easiest way to get all the features you're looking for is to wait for a good deal on a USB audio/MIDI interface that comes with Cubase LE and has direct/zero-latency monitoring support.

ReWire/Reason/etc.... I am already lost with that paragraph, but luckily it is for AJ, so I think I'm safe!

I was just in the local guitar shop and the guy told me to get an interface with Cubase which is what he uses. I just can't spend any more money on equipment now. If I had more money to spend, I would just get a Mac Mini and use Garageband which is supposed to be the easiest thing around, from what I hear.

Step 1: Upgrade to Windows 7 from Vista...
Step 2: Try a program like Reaper
Step 3: Setup a template project file, i.e. empty tracks setup for your normal basics Vocals/Drums/Guitar/Bass etc...
Step 4: ...

Edit: Also... MIDI has nothing to do with ASIO, one is MIDI note data, i.e. ON/OFF triggers and the other is Digital Audio... MIDI contains zero audio. Therefore if you are using a MIDI controller you shouldn't be installing ASIO4ALL, in fact I wouldn't install ASIO4ALL unless your Hardware's (actually audio hardware, not midi controllers) drivers were not supported for some reason.

Step 1: I will as soon as I can afford to!! Vista sucks beyond what words can express.
Step 2: I will try that as soon as i can.
Step 3 & 4: Not sure what that means, but I suppose I will once I get Reaper

Midi/ASIO: Then why am I getting latency in Sony Acid Pro? Could it be I made a bad setting somewhere that jacked it up, or could it be Vista, or my soundcard?

All: It seems that Cubase is the tool to use. I'll check it out, but also the other software mentioned. If there are further suggestions in light of my situation, by all means, feel free to share.

[AJOwens]

Well, I checked it out , and Cubase LE 4, which came with my new Tascam 122, does not support Rewire.

On top of that, after following the arduous licensing process for Cubase LE 4, I was hit in the end with a big red message saying that the Licenser number I'd entered was wrong. I triple-checked, and it was not. So I can't even make the thing work past 30 days.

On top of that, the Tascam 122 has noticeable processor noise in the audio output, intrroduced on the USB connection.

So tomorrow, I'll return the whole package for a refund, or maybe a different product if I'm in a better mood.

[ujnhunter]

Well, I checked it out , and Cubase LE 4, which came with my new Tascam 122, does not support Rewire.

It seems that Steinburg took out features and actually made LE worse with higher revisions... I have Cubase LE 1.07 and it has ReWire capability as well as allowing more FX/Instrument slots than even LE 1.08 does! Crazy... My advice it to use REAPER! It does everything Cubase does, and it's free to use... and $60 to register if you like it.

Step 3 & 4: Not sure what that means, but I suppose I will once I get Reaper

It means that if you want to be able to just open up Reaper (or any DAW) and just start recording... it helps to have a basic template setup. It saves you from creating the same tracks over and over again every time if you use a Guitar, Drums & Vocals etc... If you like using a certain FX chain all the time on your vocals (Compression/Reverb/etc...) You can set it up to have an empty Vocal track that already has that stuff setup. Download Reaper, it is free, you can record Midi Tracks & Audio Tracks and do everything you can do in Cubase (pretty much).

Midi/ASIO: Then why am I getting latency in Sony Acid Pro? Could it be I made a bad setting somewhere that jacked it up, or could it be Vista, or my soundcard?

I'm not sure why you are getting midi latency... Is your midi controller installed properly? Did you install drivers for it? Or did it automatically work P&P? Also, I haven't used Acid Pro since before it was owned by Sony (I think...) and it was just a loop editing software then... I have not idea what it is now... Is it a full blown DAW now? Midi should be almost instant, it's just on/off signals really...

[AJOwens]

Wages asked,
Midi/ASIO: Then why am I getting latency in Sony Acid Pro?

Not sure I'm completely following, but I know MIDI can involve latency issues. When I use my MIDI controller with Reason, I have to select an ASIO driver in the Reason audio setup. If I use a DX driver or try to use the onboard sound card, the keys will sound about a half-second after I press them.

[ujnhunter]

To test the latency of the MIDI look at the piano roll, not the sound you hear... if the notes are recording to the proper spots, then it's the audio card that is the latency problem not the midi...

[wages]

To test the latency of the MIDI look at the piano roll, not the sound you hear... if the notes are recording to the proper spots, then it's the audio card that is the latency problem not the midi...

That may very well be the problem I'm experiencing in Acid Pro. It works fine in Mixcraft, but I still gotta get on Reaper and Cubase and see which I prefer. Just too many plans this weekend! And I gotta brew beer tomorrow. Damn!

[Rabid Garfunkel]

re: MIDI

I don't know your programs, but... when you're recording your keyboard, are you recording an audio track (from the VSTi or whatever's making sound) or a MIDI track?

re: Cubase LE

No shit? Wow, that's offensively bad of them.

[ujnhunter]

re: Cubase LE

No shit? Wow, that's offensively bad of them.

Yeah... it blew my mind when I found out... I never upgraded because of that... funny... new version not only contains bug fixes... but less features! woo!

[Spud]

That's ONE way to fix a bug...

[jeff robertson]

Exactly what instrument are you using your midi controller to control?

If you're trying to use Windows' and/or a soundblaster's built-in general MIDI synth, don't. Get a virtual instrument like sfz that you can use inside of Reaper (or whatever) as a plugin, and some soundfonts. Maybe this has already been covered earlier in the thread, and I missed it somehow.

[wages]

Exactly what instrument are you using your midi controller to control?

If you're trying to use Windows' and/or a soundblaster's built-in general MIDI synth, don't. Get a virtual instrument like sfz that you can use inside of Reaper (or whatever) as a plugin, and some soundfonts. Maybe this has already been covered earlier in the thread, and I missed it somehow.

I don't really know how to answer this question. Here's what I'm doing: midi keyboard controller into USB port. Open Mixcraft software and play. The problem with Mixcraft is it is nagging me to register and I'm not ready to buy yet as I'm not convinced it's worth the price.

Upon reflection, I'm thinking it is the combo of Vista and my soundcard that are causing me problems with latency in general (on both the midi and analog fronts). Unfortunately, I've already shot my load, so neither of these problems will be dealt with soon. In the meantime, I have two options that I can see: 1) try Reaper and Cubase and hope they overcome Vista/soundcard or 2) get an XP machine I've got reformated and dedicated to recording.

[ken]

I get fine latency on my Vista laptop using ASIO4ALL and Cubase/Reason on a few different controllers.

It really helps if you optimize your system fwiw.

[jb]

Nowhere in this thread did I see that you've checked to make sure your recording software is using ASIO4ALL. It'll be in the Audio settings for whatever software you're using.

Regarding Cubase LE-- in order to just TRY recording with MIDI you shouldn't need to use anything like Rewire. Cubase comes with softsynths that you can use, built in. You just need to create a new track for the softsynth. Sorry, I can't tell you exactly how, only the principles.

Reaper is recording software like Cubase and the others. It's only a couple of years old, and was built from scratch by the guy who made the Jesusonic plugin/pedal and, believe it or not, Winamp. He also entered a couple Song Fights as "Consume" and "Consume, Vagina Boy": http://songfight.org/artistpage.php?key=consume

I know that Jeff and Brad Sucks, and I believe MC Frontalot are currently using it as their recording software (although I think Brad uses Ableton Live a lot too). The good thing about Reaper is that it is free to try with no crippled features for the trial. And if you decide to buy it, it's only $50 if you're a regular person (it's more if you're a professional who sells music, but that price difference is on the honor system).

Reaper will work similarly. You have to set Reaper to use ASIO4ALL (or whatever ASIO drivers you find to use), and then make a track that "points" in some way to the softsynth. I assume you already know how to set your MIDI controller to be an input, since you say you're only having latency issues and not "can't get it to make a sound" issues.

Everyone's posts are helpful, but if you want to help further please be DETAILED in your response and do your best not to assume too much-- you risk missing a crucial step that will cause a lot of frustration before the wonderful "OH THERE IT IS" moment.

Hope this helps, Wages.

JB

[ken]

Good point JB.

This should help you change your audio driver in Cubase - http://www.steinbergusers.com/cubase/ne ... _audio.php

I think I also posted a cool thing about latency somewhere... I'll take a look for it.

Ken

[ken]

I dunno, try reading this: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/a ... sician.htm