Can we talk about these songs?(A Conversation reviews)

[ken]

I'm not sure what the problem is here. JB, what about the sound of Jon's vocal is bothering you?

I listened to all three of these songs, and it sounds like Jon to me. The vocal on my computer speakers sounds a little harsh on top and muddy in the mid-range. This would be pretty typical of a low end Chinese condenser mic. Jon, how do you process your vocals? You could probably try to EQ in a bit more clarity.

I think your comment about the room sound is valid. You sound like you are singing in a room to me. I don't have a problem with that, but if you wanted to control that, you might want to try and create a dead corner of your recording room with some acoustic materials and use that corner for your vocals. At least try putting a heavy comforter on a mic stand behind your head next time you track your vocals.

Out of curiosity, which capsule do you tend to use on that mic when you record your vocals.

This probably belongs in the help and how to thread, but hopefully everyone can get some use out of mic/recording discussions.

Ken

[Billy's Little Trip]

Jon's novel

I'd like to chime in on the vocal mic discussion, if I may. First off, your piano playing has improved immensely from a year ago. Nice song.

As far as the mic goes I hear no problem with the mic itself. It's a clean recording, which is the most important thing. The rest can be EQd in the mix to brighten and/or compress as needed. But you do the same thing that DJ does when singing with your digital piano. The piano is very dynamic. But you mix your voice flat and as if it's not in the same room. If you'd simply match the same reverb and room sound of your piano, it would be so much better received. Mainly because it would mesh them together on the same stage, instead of two separate venues.....if you will. Hope that helps.

Our free plug-ins here have some great reverb VSTs. Glaceverb is a really good one with tons of vocal/piano reverbs. Noah has it on his free plug-in site if you can't find it in the SF plug thread.

[RangerDenni]

Glaceverb does not have a Mac version. This does not affect you, Jon. I will say more in the half completed reviews but I liked your lyrics lots as I have said

(and yes, I do have the rooms problem. It's really glaring on my Circle Me, which I have not yet remixed)

[Billy's Little Trip]

Glaceverb does not have a Mac version. This does not affect you, Jon. I will say more in the half completed reviews but I liked your lyrics lots as I have said

(and yes, I do have the rooms problem. It's really glaring on my Circle Me, which I have not yet remixed)

But you have finally taken my advice and started paying more attention to put your voice and pianos in the same room for the overall ambiance. You Carpenter's cover was outstanding. Well performed and well mixed.

[Ross]

I have never taken the time to learn to properly use my system, but my understanding is that the use of reverb as a bus effect is meant to help apply the same sound to multiple instruments and try to create uniformity of sound.

[RangerDenni]

it's nice to hear good feedback.

I just thought of something with Jon too... If you are recording in your downstairs you will be getting lots of reflections, in particular from your tile. I know you've been playing with your setup for the Google+ hangouts, but it's worthwhile to pick the lot up and get it out of your most reflective room for recording-recording.
You may well already know this tho. I am just thinking about when you moved your mic during that your rap round of spintunes and the quality jumped because the reflections decreased.

[JonPorobil]

I don't think it's a coincidence that this is also the first song I've recorded since moving to a new house back in November. I wonder if you're reacting more to the room sound than to the microphone? Some other songs which were well-received, but recorded on this exact same microphone in a different room include "Hardly a Moment" and "When Did You Know," which came in first place and tied for third place in their respective fights.

Hardly a Moment isn't awful, but mixed poorly. When Did You Know does not sound good. I dunno what the solution is, Jon, it may not be that you need a new mic. Maybe you need to just be closer to the mic, play with the gain, get a compressor in front of your audio interface so you can sing as loud/soft as you want without clipping. Not sure-- it seems like you want to sing pretty loudly, and you might be swaying back and forth in front of the mic. Could be you need to practice mic technique so you can have all the emotion you want in your voice while maintaining a consistent volume into the microphone. I say this realizing that your response may be "I know mic technique, I've been using mics forever, don't preach to me about mic technique asshole!" Just speculating on what the cause may be for what I'm hearing. Too far away, too muffled. So that makes me think "needs mic technique, needs compression, and needs EQ" but that is assuming you have good signal going to your computer-- garbage in, garbage out-- hence maybe a better microphone.

All I know is that it should be better, and given your talent and your dedication to making music, I choose to expect better from you. You put a lot of effort into coming up with the music, you should put as much into making it sound good when people listen to it here. If you pull it off your street cred as a musician/songwriter will hockey stick. You're not alone in this boat.

All my opinion of course, I am not trying to dictate or create gospel here, but hopefully it's some insight into how I approach your music.

JB

I'm not offended; I've known you long enough to take your criticisms in the spirit in which they're intended. Thanks for humoring my long-winded semi-defense.

Honestly, I don't know a lot about mic technique. My mic technique is basically: 1.) Keep a safe distance from the microphone, 2.) use a pop filter, and 3.) If it clips, reduce recording volume and try again. So I'm sure there's volumes of information that I don't even know I don't know about that topic.

I'm not sure what the problem is here. JB, what about the sound of Jon's vocal is bothering you?

I listened to all three of these songs, and it sounds like Jon to me. The vocal on my computer speakers sounds a little harsh on top and muddy in the mid-range. This would be pretty typical of a low end Chinese condenser mic. Jon, how do you process your vocals? You could probably try to EQ in a bit more clarity.

I think your comment about the room sound is valid. You sound like you are singing in a room to me. I don't have a problem with that, but if you wanted to control that, you might want to try and create a dead corner of your recording room with some acoustic materials and use that corner for your vocals. At least try putting a heavy comforter on a mic stand behind your head next time you track your vocals.

Out of curiosity, which capsule do you tend to use on that mic when you record your vocals.

This probably belongs in the help and how to thread, but hopefully everyone can get some use out of mic/recording discussions.

Ken

Ken, I've done nothing to treat my room yet, so that's the direction I'm leaning. There aren't even any curtains on the window yet (planning on finally fixing that this weekend). In my old apartment, I kept the microphone in my closet, so the clothes did a pretty good job of deadening sound around there. I might try that in this new place, but the closet is quite a bit smaller, so I don't know if that's feasible anymore.

As far as vocal processing, I've done nearly nothing. A touch of compression (default setting because I was in a hurry), a touch of reverb (again, preset because I was in a hurry, but I turned the "Wet" knob down to 10 or so), and some light pitch correction. No EQ (though I did notch the piano to carve out some space for the vocals... that's the first time I've tried to do that, and upon a relisten, I'm not sure it was effective).

For this song (and most songs, in fact), I used the "Warm" capsule for the lead vocal. I usually switch to "bright" for backup vocals.

Jon's novel

I'd like to chime in on the vocal mic discussion, if I may. First off, your piano playing has improved immensely from a year ago. Nice song.

As far as the mic goes I hear no problem with the mic itself. It's a clean recording, which is the most important thing. The rest can be EQd in the mix to brighten and/or compress as needed. But you do the same thing that DJ does when singing with your digital piano. The piano is very dynamic. But you mix your voice flat and as if it's not in the same room. If you'd simply match the same reverb and room sound of your piano, it would be so much better received. Mainly because it would mesh them together on the same stage, instead of two separate venues.....if you will. Hope that helps.

Our free plug-ins here have some great reverb VSTs. Glaceverb is a really good one with tons of vocal/piano reverbs. Noah has it on his free plug-in site if you can't find it in the SF plug thread.

Again I find myself asking: Chris, did you change your drug regimen or something? This rings pretty true to me; you might be right on the money.

For the record, the piano reverb is native to the piano. I can turn it off (sounds like a pretty good experiment for next time, actually), but I can't really adjust it. The vocal reverb is a kludgy combination of my actual bedroom sound and a Cubase reverb plugin. I can see how the two clashing would give off the impression of "bad mic sound."

it's nice to hear good feedback.

I just thought of something with Jon too... If you are recording in your downstairs you will be getting lots of reflections, in particular from your tile. I know you've been playing with your setup for the Google+ hangouts, but it's worthwhile to pick the lot up and get it out of your most reflective room for recording-recording.
You may well already know this tho. I am just thinking about when you moved your mic during that your rap round of spintunes and the quality jumped because the reflections decreased.

No, the only instrument I do downstairs is the piano, and since that's not miked, the tile never enters into the equation. Have you seen the bedroom/studio? It's nice and carpeted, but has no curtains or dampening on the walls.


Thanks for the input, everyone!

[Billy's Little Trip]

Jon's novel

I'd like to chime in on the vocal mic discussion, if I may. First off, your piano playing has improved immensely from a year ago. Nice song.

As far as the mic goes I hear no problem with the mic itself. It's a clean recording, which is the most important thing. The rest can be EQd in the mix to brighten and/or compress as needed. But you do the same thing that DJ does when singing with your digital piano. The piano is very dynamic. But you mix your voice flat and as if it's not in the same room. If you'd simply match the same reverb and room sound of your piano, it would be so much better received. Mainly because it would mesh them together on the same stage, instead of two separate venues.....if you will. Hope that helps.

Our free plug-ins here have some great reverb VSTs. Glaceverb is a really good one with tons of vocal/piano reverbs. Noah has it on his free plug-in site if you can't find it in the SF plug thread.

Again I find myself asking: Chris, did you change your drug regimen or something? This rings pretty true to me; you might be right on the money.

For the record, the piano reverb is native to the piano. I can turn it off (sounds like a pretty good experiment for next time, actually), but I can't really adjust it. The vocal reverb is a kludgy combination of my actual bedroom sound and a Cubase reverb plugin. I can see how the two clashing would give off the impression of "bad mic sound."

Let me clarify what I said. The problem is not the native reverb of your piano. That is the sound of that piano and it's great. Don't change it. Just concentrate on your vocal ambiance. Picture in your head for a moment, of the times you've been to a piano bar, or similar, with an acoustic piano playing and the singer letting it rip. His piano reverb is created by the room he's in. So he has to do the same to his PA depending on the acoustics of the room he's playing in. He's not changing his beautiful natural piano sound, he's adjusting his vocal sound to work with the piano. Just think like that when you mix your songs, because there won't be one setting that you can use on every song. You'll need to tweak it slightly all the time.

Also, one mistake I see people do all the time on their DAW is to put the reverb on the insert instead of the send/aux. While mixing, it sounds fine. But reverb should be an added FX. I'm not saying you can't, because I have used things on the inserts for a special sound I'm trying to get. But general rule is to use reverb as an "added" FX as it passes through.

Also, you said: My mic technique is basically: 1.) Keep a safe distance from the microphone, 2.) use a pop filter, and 3.) If it clips, reduce recording volume and try again. So I'm sure there's volumes of information that I don't even know I don't know about that topic.
Actually, that is perfect! There really shouldn't be volumes to this part. The recording part should always be this simple. You make an engineer very happy if you get him a clean recording. The rest can be dealt with in the mix and production. So you are doing it right. Sure, a vocal booth, a 5K mic and a vocal pre-amp would be great! But this isn't the tape age. We have so much available to us these days. You just get a clean recording and practice on getting your finished sound awesome.

[ken]

For this song (and most songs, in fact), I used the "Warm" capsule for the lead vocal. I usually switch to "bright" for backup vocals.

I just have to say that I looked that the plot for this mic and I am scared by the +10db spike at 10K with the "bright"capsule.

Let me suggest the really helpful EQ Primer as a way to start using EQ on your tracks: http://recordingwebsite.com/articles/eqprimer.php

There is a lot of good advice happening here. Well done Songfight!

Ken

[jb]

Also, you said: My mic technique is basically: 1.) Keep a safe distance from the microphone, 2.) use a pop filter, and 3.) If it clips, reduce recording volume and try again. So I'm sure there's volumes of information that I don't even know I don't know about that topic.
Actually, that is perfect! There really shouldn't be volumes to this part. The recording part should always be this simple. You make an engineer very happy if you get him a clean recording. The rest can be dealt with in the mix and production. So you are doing it right. Sure, a vocal booth, a 5K mic and a vocal pre-amp would be great! But this isn't the tape age. We have so much available to us these days. You just get a clean recording and practice on getting your finished sound awesome.

I would say that a *consistent* distance from the mic is also important, and that setting your gain properly is also really helpful. If you're going to sing loudly, and you have the gain too high, you need to stay further back from the mic in order to be "safe" (i.e. avoid clipping)-- but the further back you get, the more room "sound" you're going to get into your vocal recording. So what I'd *try* (experimentation pays off) is turning the level down and getting closer and seeing what's what with that mic. The closer you get the more proximity effect you might get as well, which will add natural bass to the recording. You can't have a thick, rich vocal if there was never any thickness or richness there in the first place.

[Billy's Little Trip]

If you're going to sing loudly, and you have the gain too high, you need to stay further back from the mic in order to be "safe" (i.e. avoid clipping)-- but the further back you get, the more room "sound" you're going to get into your vocal recording. So what I'd *try* (experimentation pays off) is turning the level down and getting closer and seeing what's what with that mic. The closer you get the more proximity effect you might get as well, which will add natural bass to the recording. You can't have a thick, rich vocal if there was never any thickness or richness there in the first place.

Absolutely. Not only in theory, but also tried and tested by me personally. If I'm recording vox in a horrid room, which is 99% of the time, I'm right on the mic with the gain very low. Like to the tune of 2 or 3 inches. I can always create my room in the mix, but I can't take out a bad room I'm singing in.

I will say that when I decided to start recording with a condenser mic, everything changed. I almost put it on my shelf to go back to my SM-58. I hated it. It allowed me actually hear all the things wrong with my voice, singing technique and surroundings. But I really wanted a mic that sounded good with everything from a whisper to a rage. Plus the condenser is so clear. So I had to retrain myself for a condenser mic. But now I'm glad I did switch for the studio.

[JonPorobil]

For this song (and most songs, in fact), I used the "Warm" capsule for the lead vocal. I usually switch to "bright" for backup vocals.

I just have to say that I looked that the plot for this mic and I am scared by the +10db spike at 10K with the "bright"capsule.

Yes, the one time I used "bright" for a lead vocal ("Time to Panic"), I was very dissatisfied with the sound. Well, it won that round, but I still think the vocal didn't come out sounding very good.

Let me suggest the really helpful EQ Primer as a way to start using EQ on your tracks: http://recordingwebsite.com/articles/eqprimer.php

There is a lot of good advice happening here. Well done Songfight!

Ken

I'll peruse that when I get home. Thank you!

[JonPorobil]

If you're going to sing loudly, and you have the gain too high, you need to stay further back from the mic in order to be "safe" (i.e. avoid clipping)-- but the further back you get, the more room "sound" you're going to get into your vocal recording. So what I'd *try* (experimentation pays off) is turning the level down and getting closer and seeing what's what with that mic. The closer you get the more proximity effect you might get as well, which will add natural bass to the recording. You can't have a thick, rich vocal if there was never any thickness or richness there in the first place.

Absolutely. Not only in theory, but also tried and tested by me personally. If I'm recording vox in a horrid room, which is 99% of the time, I'm right on the mic with the gain very low. Like to the tune of 2 or 3 inches. I can always create my room in the mix, but I can't take out a bad room I'm singing in.

I will say that when I decided to start recording with a condenser mic, everything changed. I almost put it on my shelf to go back to my SM-58. I hated it. It allowed me actually hear all the things wrong with my voice, singing technique and surroundings. But I really wanted a mic that sounded good with everything from a whisper to a rage. Plus the condenser is so clear. So I had to retrain myself for a condenser mic. But now I'm glad I did switch for the studio.

Pretty good points. I'm usually 1-2 feet away from the mic, but sometimes I get closer, when I want a more "whispery" vocal. My "The Middle Part" is one of the times I got closer, largely because I had strep throat at the time and couldn't really "belt." If I recall correctly, I got some unexpected compliments on my vocal timbre that week.

For my "A Conversation," the first two quatrains were pretty close to the mic, like 6-9 inches. The last few lines, since the melody picks up volume there, were recorded at more of a distance, for which I've been rightly taken to task.

Sorry to take up so much thread time with analysis of my microphone technique. I'll be contributing my set of reviews later today.
I meant to listen to the songs at work today, but I forgot to bring the flash drive I saved them to, and my work firewall won't let me download mp3s. I'll get to them tonight.

[ken]

1-2 feet from the mic when singing is waaaaay too far. Please try 2-3 inches from now on. wow.

[jb]

For my "A Conversation," the first two quatrains were pretty close to the mic, like 6-9 inches. The last few lines, since the melody picks up volume there, were recorded at more of a distance, for which I've been rightly taken to task.

When I record, my breath gets the pop screen wet, and frequently my nose is pushing the fabric in. That's close. You should consider 6 inches to be far away from the mic. This will give you a much more intimate, much more "close in", cleaner sound that's free of corruption from your terrible room.

It's just a possibility, but you may be attributing the compliments you received previously on the fact that you were sick, when you SHOULD be attributing them to the fact that your mic technique was different.

When you sit down in front of your mic, turn the gain all the way down and then get real close and start singing at about the level you expect to sing for the part you want to record. As you sing, turn up the gain until it juuuust clips and then turn it back down below that. It will be MUCH lower than you expect, you might find that you hardly have to turn that knob up at all to get the right level. (Practice will help you get good at finding the right gain setting.)

JB

[JonPorobil]

Oh!

Has conventional wisdom on this issue changed in the last five years or so? I thought it was bad to get too close to the microphone while singing...

[Caravan Ray]

Interesting.

Especially since getting a condensor mic a few years ago - I never adjust my gain - but use distance to regulate volume. For a song like this weeks, where I sing really, really loud - I may stand more than a metre back from the mic. That probably explains why I had trouble getting the lead vox to cut through in the mix. Plenty of volume, but it did lack something.

I will try cutting the gain and getting closer. I will be hard though. I do tend to dance around a lot while singing.

[hillbilly]

It may sound better if you didnt use a mike at all

[Steve Durand]

I get about 4 to 6 inches away from the mic for singing. Maybe a couple of feet for a loud instrument like the trumpet.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I will be hard though. I do tend to dance around a lot while singing.

....... ......................

[Caravan Ray]

Shut up. I am really quite graceful for a portly gent.

[Jim of Seattle]

Listen, identify and trust, listen, identify and trust, listen, identify and trust.

6 inches, 2 inches, 12 yards, doesn't matter. What's much more important is the conversation between your ears and your inner critic. Do you like how it sounds? No? Why not? Identify what the problem is (easier said than done in many cases, of course), and then figure out what you're going to do about it. If the answer is "nothing, it's good enough", then you're ignoring the lesson your ears just tried to teach you. I bought a mic for $200 in 1995 on the blind recommendation of the guy at the music gear store, and it's the only mic I've ever owned or used. I still don't know the difference between a condenser and a -- what was the other kind of mic called again? To this day I still don't know which kind mine is. And I don't remember ever having gotten a review here that said I needed a better mic. How can this be?

I don't own a single book on audio production, never took any lessons or anything, and my swiss cheese knowledge of it has come 90% from tweaking knobs that did who-knows-what, and then listening, identifying and trusting. My audio production ears get a little better every year, and only now am I starting to realize.... (ahem) that I could probably use a better mic. I wouldn't have gotten one ten years ago because my ears weren't hearing a problem yet. Had I come into an amazing mic back then, of course my mic knowledge would have spiked, but other knowledge spiked instead.

Last year I learned about something called a frequency-based compressor. That's something I could probably use now, but a couple years ago, I wouldn't have seen the need.

Anyway, Jon, I think this conversation is becoming a bit of a rat hole. Really, you'll get the most value from simply listening really critically until you hear a problem. Once your ears pick up on it, as long as you trust them, you won't be satisfied until you fix it however you end up fixing it.

Of course we all need to trust our musical instincts (again,l easier said than done), but not everyone has the same clarity of listening. It's kind of like asking someone to paint with more precise detail but they stilll have blurry vision. The more you do this, the "sharper" your hearing will become (using the vision analogy), and listening, identifying and trusting over and over will sharpen it.

So often I will hear a song here and think "How could they not hear how bad that sounds? Isn't it obvious?" And the answer may very well be "No, they don't hear it. Yet." If I hear old songs I recorded long ago I always think that, and I'm listening to myself. "Oh my god, why didn't I hear that?"

I'm not done but I'm stopping now