Gret it right the first time (Failure and Regret Reviews)

[fluffy]

Are you black, and were you offended by it?

I had nothing to do with this entry, but I get offended by people crying for censorship in a forum which is supposed to be about FREE EXPRESSION.

Where did I say nobody should/would/could be offended by it? I just said that it was appropriate, given the context. And, I was only speaking for myself - seems like the people who are calling for a banning are the ones speaking for others.

[jack]

if you're trying to rationalize using the N word, or clueless about why people are offended, you're a bigger asshole than i give you credit for.

and by the way, i don't have to be black to take offense to it.

[fluffy]

I'm not clueless about why people are offended nor am I trying to rationalize its use, I'm just wondering what's so bad about it in this context. I also think it's a bit harsh to consider me to be a huge asshole for trying to stand up for someone's artistic expression. (It's not like I use that phrase, nor do I think it's appropriate in conversation, but as an <em>artistic statement</em> it can have valid uses. IMO, this is one of them. But mostly I'm playing devil's advocate.)

Out of curiosity, can you explain why you take offense to it?

[fluffy]

Also, were you offended when Sober Irishman laid down <a href="http://songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.p ... 6777">this gem of a direct slur at me</a> (considering that I'm Jewish)? Or is it okay to insult Jews? (And, then what about a bit later when he called me by the very word that you're complaining about!)

[jack]

I'm not clueless about why people are offended nor am I trying to rationalize its use, I'm just wondering what's so bad about it in this context. I also think it's a bit harsh to consider me to be a huge asshole for trying to stand up for someone's artistic expression. (It's not like I use that phrase, nor do I think it's appropriate in conversation, but as an <em>artistic statement</em> it can have valid uses. IMO, this is one of them. But mostly I'm playing devil's advocate.)

Out of curiosity, can you explain why you take offense to it?

out of curiousity, is anyone else here offended by it?

[fluffy]

Obviously people are offended by it, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

My question is why you feel that the use of this word in an artistic context by someone portraying a hillbilly means that the person behind the portrayal is a complete asshole, not to mention anyone who would DARE to stand up for their freedom of speech. Can you answer that?

[thehipcola]

jack shite: I'm really dumbfounded that you and others are getting so offended-by-proxy at something which is the use of a common (if off-color) expression which is totally in-character for someone calling themselves "hillbilly," and it wasn't even used in a derogatory context.

why does it have to be offended-by-proxy? the word is repugnant, regardless of whether you are the subject of its use or not.

Maybe you're the racist for thinking that referring to the work ethic of a particular minority is a racist remark.

what? you must be joking with that statement. IF not, you aren't dumbfounded man...just shorten that word a bit...you'll get there....

[jack]

Obviously people are offended by it, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

My question is why you feel that the use of this word in an artistic context by someone portraying a hillbilly means that the person behind the portrayal is a complete asshole, not to mention anyone who would DARE to stand up for their freedom of speech.

this is getting ridiculous. you can take your artistic context and shove it up your bunghole. just because his name on the boards is "hillbilly", doesn't mean that's what he is. is The Hip Cola really a Hip Cola? or is Leaf really a leaf?

i'm all for freedom of speech. i'm also a big fan of common sense too.

and the fact that sober or anyone may have slurred you in the past has nothing to do with this discussion. two wrongs don't make a right.

this is all i have to say on the matter. sorry for polluting this thread by having to rationalize etiquette and good behavior, even if it is such a threat to the first amendment. i guess i owe you guys reviews now.

[thehipcola]

Also, were you offended when Sober Irishman laid down <a href="http://songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.p ... 6777">this gem of a direct slur at me</a> (considering that I'm Jewish)? Or is it okay to insult Jews? (And, then what about a bit later when he called me by the very word that you're complaining about!)

Yes I was...and I stated such.

[erik]

Language breeds stereotypes, and unless black people want to reclaim the word (without softening the r), the word itself only creates more ugliness, regardless of whether you think it does or not. Anytime people use a word whose mere existence (and continued use) serves to judge a person by the color of his skin, I am offended - not by proxy, but as a person with skin, who would like to not be judged by its color. The word itself is taboo, and to pretend it's not is retarded. There are instances where I myself have heard the word used in the arts and understood the point of using the word. It's usually to mock the person using it. I don't get that sense here, and if that's what the artist was going for, they did a poor job at that.

Context is important, obviously, but to make the claim that a phrase passes muster simply because of the name that an artist has chosen is ridiculous.

The phrase "work like a nigger" is hardly a common expression, according to Google, who is my friend. Having never heard the phrase until just now, I am guessing it refers in part to how hard black slaves were worked during America's history. It doesn't seem to be a phrase free of negativity. The only reasons I can think of for using a phrase like that is 1)to paint the narrator as unreliable, 2) artist ignores all cultural clues telling him not to use the word, 3) artist is a big old racist and sees nothing wrong with it.

It doesn't seem to be #1, and I doubt it's #3. It's probably #2, but that doesn't mean he's not a dumbass.

[fluffy]

You must have missed that I was paraphrasing Jack's original post in order to play Devil's Advocate. I'm not actually dumbfounded. I'm just trying to get people to THINK about their knee-jerk responses to this.

I grew up in an area where this phrase was commonly used, because there were a lot of hillbillies. I was also taught to never, ever use that word; the only time I ever spoke it was when I didn't know what it meant (I thought it just meant "servant"), and the adult I said it to very quickly educated me on its actual meaning.

I don't find the word itself to be offensive, though &mdash; it's the <em>intent</em> which is offensive. <em>In the context of this song</em> I don't see any offensive intent; it's just using a phrase which is used by hillbillies, also without an offensive intent.

People have a right to be offended, but I also feel that people have a right to artistic expression. I also feel that I have the right to ask people questions about why they're offended, and try to get them to actually <em>think</em> about where the offense is coming from. <em>Especially</em> with the particular meaning of the phrase as it was used.

I guess my armchair philosopher decided that this was an appropriate time to use the Socratic method. Sorry if that bothered anyone. (Though I'm offended that Jack implied that I'm an asshole &mdash; I'd like to think that I'm just curious about what makes people tick.)

[jimtyrrell]

Failure and Regret Reviews

Abecedarian: Pretty cool. I was going to say that this would sound better as a full band thing, but it evolves into something nice as it is. I’ve not seen the TV show that inspired this song, but I’ve seen commercials. I think this piece holds up okay on its own though. Worth a re-listen.

Deshead: Got my attention. Oh, nice voice. This is really well-recorded and –performed. Didn’t seem a bit too long at almost four minutes. Nice job!

Diathetic Obfuscation: This sounds a lot like what I had pictured for this song title. Oh, until the spoken word bit, hadn’t expected that. I find myself wishing the guitar were louder, and the overall feel a little more aggressive. But I like the end well enough to want to go back and hear it again. Three fights, three songs worth keeping. Off to a good start!

Hillbilly: The band name made me a little apprehensive. I feared I might be in for a toss-off half-handed effort. But this is a pleasant surprise. The Texas (?) drawl is a bit heavy for me, but that’s just me. Nice piece of work.

The Hip Cola (featuring Tonetripper): As expected, this sounds super slick. I’m not crazy about some of the lyrics at first listen, but if they’re in the lyric archive, I’ll give them a read and see what I think. The things that stick out are the over-used clichés like ‘apple of my eye’ and ‘heart strings’. But then, this is criticism from a guy who once wrote “I’m just the nest of a bird that has flown”, so far be it from me to throw stones. Oh, I wasn’t ready for this to end yet. Just kinda fades off…

Lonbobby: Oh man, this strikes my funny bone pretty hard. This is one my kids are going to like. That harmonica cracks me up. And I’m one of those weird people who thinks vocoders sound cool. Damn, Lonbobby, I like this as much as (or more than) anything else I’ve heard from you. This is a keeper. Still a good solid fight so far!

Ns: Again, the classic conundrum. An instrumental that may well be a poignant interpretation of this title, or may have been kicking around on someone’s hard drive for two years. Other possible titles for this piece: 1) Glass Palace. 2) Between The Rain. 3) Insomnia. 4) Hollywood Fantasy.

Queso de Papa: Neat groove. Could use a more distinctive change in feel between sections. Not getting many of the lyrics. Sounds pleasant though. Oh, there’s some nice tasty guitar stuff in there.

Red Balloon: Tough to get into. It’s not the recording quality that puts me off here, but the fact that the instruments sound out of sync with one another. Sounds like it was fun to do though. This piece would have lost little by being half as long.

SongFight Orchestra: Well that was neat. And quite well done, too! And unmistakeably Glenn Case. The more I listen, the better it gets.

As fights go, this is some primo shit. No street-grade stuff here, this is for the people in the penthouses. No clear winner yet, but it’ll be fun to re-listen and figure out. Thanks everybody!

[drë]

Quick review as there’s some good songs in this fight.

<b>ABC guy</b> - possible vote
This low voice is probably the best vocal performance I have heard from you yet. I like it.
The minimalist approach work great as well. Not sure what language that is at the end, French ? can’t really find anything bad to say about this song, sounds good to me.

<b>deshead</b> - possible vote, but not this time
not un-plugged heh ? this rhythm/chord progression sounds familiar… up and down up and down.. up and down up and down.. . . find a pattern here ?
Wished you would just let loose and just go nuts for a solo/break to really break the cycle.

<b>dia the icobfuscation</b> - possible vote
I guess this is either master of grip or the land fills, or maybe both, or none.
Either way I like it. The vocals could have been better recorded, like with a pop filter??

<b>hillbilly(red neck!)</b>
uhh, it’s a bit slow for my taste at this point in time.

<b>hip Canadians</b> - possible vote – ok vote
I don’t even now know what to say, besides that this is very original and very well produce with good lyrics, and laidback feelgood vibe.

<b>lonbobby</b>
at first I though this sounded like the postal service, and then the harmonica.
I like harmonicas.
I know the above doesn’t count as a review, but is better than nothing.

<b>NS</b>
sleep music.. .. yeeaa!

<b>potato cheese</b> - possible vote
This has a nice rhythm, and well mixed. Like how it slowly builds up. But at 4 minutes, might be a bit long, ohh but it has it cool jamming ending.
Looking forward to hearing more of your songs.

<b>red balloon</b>- possible vote
Nice pun on the title, as you completely failed to play every instrument in this song.
Even after that, it has good energy, and can almost pass for a mountain goat song. A bit long though.

<b>songfight orchestra</b>
Glenn, not sure how in hell is Jim is going to mix this, to follow what leaf did last week as it’s a 180 from this.
sounds good though.

[thehipcola]

hey Jim, lyrics are there. Yah, some unchallenging colloquialism's in there, but I was trying to lay it out on my sleeve. Observation duly noted by one who is very very weak at writing lyrics. Thanks!

and Thanks dre! i appreciate the kind words. Cheers!

[WeaselSlayer]

Personally I wasn't offended by the use of the word, and I think if someone honestly had a valid reason for using the n-word (which I don't think has happened yet, maybe in about a handful of songs) then it's ok. In this case, however, it was just unneccessary and offensive to other people for the sake of offending those people, therefore it was completely useless and misanthropic. It made no statement, it wasn't ironic or clever or anything. Plus the song wasn't even good.

[erik]

You must have missed that I was paraphrasing Jack's original post in order to play Devil's Advocate. I'm not actually dumbfounded. I'm just trying to get people to THINK about their knee-jerk responses to this...

(Though I'm offended that Jack implied that I'm an asshole &mdash; I'd like to think that I'm just curious about what makes people tick.)

I've thought long and hard about this, and not just starting five minutes ago. It is foolish to assume that anyone hasn't THOUGHT about it just because they don't think that there are very many instances where they would like to hear the "n-word".

Telling people that their opinions are knee-jerk responses formed because they haven't thought about a subject makes people think you are an asshole. If you want to come off as curious as to what makes people tick, start by asking questions, not by being dumbfounded (for the purposes of playing Devil's Advocate) about why they hold their opinions.

[jimtyrrell]

hey Jim, lyrics are there. Yah, some unchallenging colloquialism's in there, but I was trying to lay it out on my sleeve. Observation duly noted by one who is very very weak at writing lyrics. Thanks!

Very very weak? No, nonsense. You've done better is all I'm saying. And again, I'm one of the worst sinners in this particular regard.

[thehipcola]

appreciated, but too kind sir. You should see me sweat with anxiety when it comes time for word-smithing....

[fluffy]

Anyway, here's reviews of the actual fight, since I can actually post on the boards at home again.

Abecedarian - I like the sparse arrangement, and the minimal use of the guitar and voice alone, especially when the swell towards the happen ends making it not so sparse for a few precious seconds. Very nicely produced and clean, as well. The ending is too abrupt, though.

Deshead - The first time I heard this I thought you were Josh Woodward for a bit, which I mean in a good way. Infectious rhythm, great singing. The stereo separation on the tom drums is a bit much, though. The female vocalist during the bridge seems way out of place, though, and unfortunately by that point the song has gotten to feeling rather repetitive, and the quieter break came a little late. Overall it's still very well-done, though.

Diathetic Obfuscation - Holy crap, is it sparks? I think it is sparks.

Hillbilly - Very well-recorded, lyrics are great though I think the possible Mark Twain reference might be a little out of place.

Hip Cola - This sounds like Roymond teamed up with Hooverphonic. I love the odd layerings of instruments which would normally sound cheezy but which somehow sound good in this context. This is pretty infectious, and it just might get my vote.

Lonbobby - I like how this song is about itself, and IMO the use of the pitch-corrector is actually quite good. It was hard to tell if you were pitch-correcting or using some really amazing vocal synth that I couldn't recognize, and particularly how you stress it to make it sound specifically vague like that is a nice touch. The mix is a bit bass-heavy, though, and the rhythm loops are annoying. The harmonica is totally out of place, which makes it better I think.

ns - I kept listening thinking it was an intro to something else. But the something else never came, and it made me make this face: :(

Queso de Papa - Another Josh Woodward-sounding track, in a different way than Deshead's. Nicely arranged, never really gets boring though it never really does anything to grab me in either. Good use of fairly sparse drums, letting the guitar carry the rhythm. It needs a few well-placed cymbal crashes to break up the monotony though.

Red Balloon - It's like the Violent Femmes got together and brought out the old 4-track in someone's bedroom and made something up on the spot. Could be shorter, though at least there's enough variation in the guitar playing to keep it interesting, as far as structured jams go.

Songfight Orchestra - Glenn, I want to have your children, but that'd be a bit biologically awkward. Also Rachel might not be pleased.

[fluffy]

I've thought long and hard about this, and not just starting five minutes ago. It is foolish to assume that anyone hasn't THOUGHT about it just because they don't think that there are very many instances where they would like to hear the "n-word".

Telling people that their opinions are knee-jerk responses formed because they haven't thought about a subject makes people think you are an asshole. If you want to come off as curious as to what makes people tick, start by asking questions, not by being dumbfounded (for the purposes of playing Devil's Advocate) about why they hold their opinions.

Okay, those are pretty good points. I could have definitely handled the whole conversation better. I was knee-jerking to the calls for banishment, and it got the better of me and I was trying to be all analytical and insightful, and I just came across as inciteful.

So, sorry everyone.

[jack]

FWIW, i don't think you're an asshole or a racist fluffy. at least not now.

[mico saudad]

<b>Abecedarian</b> Holy crap I taught my band this song yesterday and I guarantee we'll be playing this one live.
<b>Deshead</b> Spiritually this is decended from Irish immigrants added to the instrumentation of Toad the Wet Sprocket to my ears and a voice that is distinctly American (*edit: although apparently you're canadian. interesting why I thought that). Epic. I don't like the vibratto for this song (e.g. 1:09-1:11, 1:27-1:29). I think it diminishes some of the rawness (1:29-1:35) that I like a great deal. Great job otherwise. If I hadn't liked my submission as much as I do this week you'd've gotten my vote.
<b>Diathetic Obfuscation</b>This sounds kind of like the Landfills, but the vocals don't sound as strong. It also feels a little bit like the type of song one of the Nihilists in the Big Lebowski would've written (only their version would be in German)
<b>Hillbilly</b> The background guitar is great. The tone of the lead at the beginning sounds a little weak, perhaps the strings need a changing. I like the simplicity of this, but it feels like there's some pent up emotion that could take this more places if you let it. It sounds like there's some peaking in bits and some vocal popping (compressor + pop filter might help). Congratulate whoever was peeing in the background for the entire song
<b>The Hip Cola feat. Tone Tripper</b> - Excellent sounds and well positioned in space relative to one another. Some head bobbing going on. I'm not sure if I've heard any of your songs before (either of you) but there is a little bit of tone tripping and certainly hipness to this. I don't know about cola though. Maybe caffiene free cola (although better tasting than most decaf colas - which is presumably why you're hip). I'll look out for your stuff in the future
<b>Lonbobby</b> I actually love the transition from the initial harmonica bit back into the electric world. That was the best moment of the song for me.
<b>ns</b> Nice in its simplicity, but this is very repetitive and also I had a hard time dissuading myself from believing that this song was simple because of ability rather than artful simplicity. I'm certain I'm wrong, but I just had a hard time convincing myself otherwise.
<b>Queso de Papa</b> Great sounds and placement. The effects on the voice don't sound right at all and I'm a little surprised given how well the rest of this is produced. I also don't really like the vocals on this in general. It feels like a lot of energy to never really let loose, too. But I love some of your production techniques - specifically the attention to the placement of the toms as the song ends.
<b>The Red Balloon</b> Good title. heh. If this were an acting class you'd be awarded points for playing the part.
<b>Songfight Orchestra</b> - This is a purty little stone. Very simple and understated. Awesome harmonies. I'm in. I believe Prep School was the last SFO tune, and now listening to the transition it must be. You did a great job of tying the two while completely changing styles. Excellent job.