Nur Ein IX Round Five "Fast Lane Junkies"

[JonPorobil]

(a bit tricky in Garageband - because you can't alter timing in a song - but I can bounce in a beat from a new project at double bpm)

Actually... http://support.apple.com/kb/PH2000

I assume that using the same beat - but twice as fast (and a corresponding speed up of guitar vocals etc) will fit the bill. But I suspect that "double time" doesn't really mean exactly twice as fast - but has something to do with beats per bar or something - which is the point where my eyes start to glaze over.

Nah, those are basically the exact same thing. Some music theory eggheads might quibble (where's Frankie when you need him?), but I believe that both of these approaches are indistinguishable to the listener.

[Caravan Ray]

(a bit tricky in Garageband - because you can't alter timing in a song - but I can bounce in a beat from a new project at double bpm)

Actually... http://support.apple.com/kb/PH2000

Wow!!! I can't believe I never knew that!!!

I always thought that that was a massive limitation to Garageband that tempo changes couldn't be done - but it was there all the time!

Now - if only there was a way of changing the colours of track segments so it is easier to visually arrange things - you don't know if there is a way of doing that do you?

[iVeg]

Yeah, double time is different than twice as fast. At least per Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-time

[chocolatechips]

ah, now (that I'm cut) I'm glad I didn't start on this (beyond some vague ideas), it seems like an extremely challenging challenge which may have the side effect of very slow songs in order to pull off the double time *with* vocals - which seems to me to be something that won't really work very well... so I'm curious to see what you guys come up with.

[Lunkhead]

ah, now (that I'm cut) I'm glad I didn't start on this (beyond some vague ideas), it seems like an extremely challenging challenge which may have the side effect of very slow songs in order to pull off the double time *with* vocals - which seems to me to be something that won't really work very well... so I'm curious to see what you guys come up with.

That's exactly the issue I'm thinking about too.

[Ross]

The closer I get to actually doing this, the more I realize that I am still a bit vexed by the challenge, and want to be sure I am not out-of-bounds on it. To me, double time is about feel, not tempo. In other words, If my progression goes A///D///E///A///, going into double time means the beat underneath would go boom-chuck twice as fast, and my comping style might change to accompany that, but I would still be doing A///D///E///A///, not A/D/E/A/. So if the original feel was at 120 bpm, the A chord would still last for 1/30 of a minute when playing that section in double time.

Or else you mean you want the tempo to double...which I think is slightly different than a strict meaning of "double time." Given that double time seems to mean a change in feel and not tempo, I am at a slight loss for what it means for vocals to be in double time.

Is doubling tempo also an adequate way to meet this challenge? Was it what was intended by the term "double time?" I don't feel the previous examples and video really clarify this dichotomy for me.

I am prepared to just do what I think is right - but want to make sure I don't cross the judges since they're, well, the judges

Thoughts? - Thanks for your time.

[JonPorobil]

Ross, that's a perfectly valid concern, and I'm not sure how to address it. Especially given the circumstances of the most recent round's results, I can understand your wanting to err on the side of caution.

Perhaps one of the other judges could chime in?

[Caravan Ray]

I am at a slight loss for what it means for vocals to be in double time.

Isn't REMs "End of the World as we Know It" a perfect example of that? - i.e. - isn't from the "Eye of a hurricane" bit double time from the opening bit?

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Try main verse @ ±96bpm, double time part(s) @±144bpm. And make sure the drums are obvious and out front in the "double time" section(s). Contrast contrast contrast!

If'n you're doing something rock-ish, anyway.

If you can trust me, that is

[glennny]

I disagree! 96 to 144 is 1.5 time. In my book, the tempo does have to double. The Cavedwellers track you might hear is at 90bpm and the double time is at 180bpm.
My favorite example (Not Suitable for work) is Dinah Moe Hum by Zappa and the Mothers. It's a nice 120bpm then the double time chorus with as quick vocals is at 240bpm. Double Time Chorus is at 0:58

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4hzVpYAP-U&feature=kp

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Good thing neither of us are are judging then, hey?

[glennny]

Reading a bit I find the source of the Durand confusion. There is indeed a thing called Double time feel.

example of differences:

Regular time : 100bpm with 1/8th note pulses from bass and drums
double time feel : 100 bpm with 1/16 note pulses from bass and drums
double time: 200bpm with 1/8 note pulses from bass and drums (which is twice as fast as 1/8 note pulses at 100bpm)

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Fine. I make a suggestion, you disagree. And muddy the waters further by throwing metric tonnes of your rightness out there that only further to obfuscate the challenge.

You're musically brilliant, I'm a punter who makes weird noises.

Fuck it, I was having a bad day already, but this hyper-focused Adderal-chomping pissing contest makes me want to go back to Rule #4-ing the scene again.

Don't mind being told I'm wrong, or that I'm full of shit, but for fuck's sake, say it plainly and without a backfill that I have to dig through...

[Ross]

What is that double of, isn,t that just the overall feel of the song? So is Subterranean
Homesick Blues song entirely in double time just because the syllables come fast?

[Ross]

So according to Glennny the challenge is to have a section where both the music and vocals are at double tempo.

Is that what the judges meant? Anyone in addition to joneric have anything here?

[glennny]

Rabid, I didn't tell you you were wrong, I told you I disagreed and how I thought what I thought. Sorry man.

Ross, STHSB is not double time or double time feel. One needs to establish a tempo and a feel. Then one may change to double time or double time feel. So as far as the REM track goes (the End of the World as we Know it) I say that is not double time. It's just a fast song.

So if you have a vocal melody that is mostly 1/8th notes, when you double time it they will be twice as fast. They will be 1/8 notes at the new tempo. (1/8 notes at double the tempo = 1/16 notes at the old tempo). If you "double time feel" them the established tempo will remain the same but you will be changing to 1/16 notes. ( of course your melody will be more complicated than just 1/8 notes, your 1/4 notes will become 1/8 notes , 1/2 notes become 1/4 notes etc.)

[Ross]

I disagree with you that there is a difference between "double time" and "double time feel" - everything I can find referring to double time says it is a rhythm that is twice as fast as the meter, not a change in meter. i welcome your reference and would love to hear what the judges think.

[glennny]

in music, playing the music twice as fast so that bars last half as long as they did originally - in this case the chordal progressions also move twice as quickly

http://www.dolmetsch.com/defsd2.htm

that is describing a doubling of tempo. That is the definition of double time.

You have to establish a meter in the first place in order to double it.

EDIT: Sorry I left out the double time Feel:

packing twice as many notes in a bar (measure) as were there in the preceding bar (measures), so that the tempo appears to gain a great deal of momentum but the chord progressions played by the rhythm guitarist, bass and piano remain the same

(same link)

[glennny]

What does Steve say? I bet Steve sees it the way I do.

[Ross]

Well, it is clear that what that definition calls double time feel is also referred to in many places as "double time" so with two acceptable definitions, if I may be so bold as to propose both as acceptable outide the range of the dolmetsch site, the judges should give a small amount of leeway - the double tempo version seems to allow for the vocal bit quite a bit more easily. I will say that in my life experience as a musician, the term as I have encountered it has been in the one ascribed to jazz on the wikipedia site.

Interestingly, the term does not appear at all in my third edition print version of the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music.

Thanks for the banter, back to my writing.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

My apologies, Glenny. Came home from my first non-dead-person-related time off in three years to find an eviction notice from the new (as in last week new) landlord on the front door welcoming me home. I flared up in the thread, my bad.

[Caravan Ray]

What is that double of, isn,t that just the overall feel of the song? So is Subterranean
Homesick Blues song entirely in double time just because the syllables come fast?

Are you talking about my reference to REM?

As I see it, Subterranean Homesick Blues is the same all the way through - nothing doubles.

But "End of the World...", you have this bit:

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, an aeroplane, and Lenny Bruce is not afraid...
which is at one speed,

followed by this bit:
...Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn
World serves its own needs, don't misserve your own needs
which seems to be double speed because the syllables are coming out twice as fast as the first bit. And the guitar is twice as fast too - even though the actual tempo doesn't change (or does it?)

Isn't that what 'double time" is? Or have I got it completely wrong?