Thank you for this reply. I hope my review didn't come across as an attack on you or your political stance, which I am sympathetic to. Your explanation helps clarify the song for me and casts especially the last verse in a very different light than I had originally interpreted it.
It's tricky when having outside info (your post here) is necessary for fully appreciating the song. You're right that getting too explicit can turn people off, but being too vague risks getting misinterpreted. In this case, I could imagine this song as part of a larger narrative (musical/opera?), or at least with some kind of visual element (music video?) to make the story understandable without having to say "HERE'S WHAT THIS SONG IS ABOUT EVERYONE."
"you did a skillful job pulling off the sexy" - RangerDenni
Micah- yeah, I’d like to rework these lyrics at some point in the future to make it clear what it’s about. And don’t worry- I didn’t feel like you were attacking, I just felt cognizant I’d the fact that my point wasn’t coming across (a good reason to rework the lyrics).
“It's like opera for toddlers or something.” -furrypedro
Cybronica: I’ve said enough about my own song at this point. More and anymore is a dumb rhyme, and I should have found a better replacement for “you learned to be kind” in the last verse, but I really like this song. It’s long, but as everyone seems to agree, it doesn’t bother me.
Evil Grin: I expect to hear this on the radio as I drive through rural PA and VA flipping through stations. It’s got a fun ‘driving through the country side on a sunny day singing along’ vibe. “Random acts of kindness to set the captives free” could have used another take to get the rhythm just right. I would have put the final Halleluja sooner and held it a little longer. As of now, it has a tacked on feel to it. I love how your voices interact- the timbres are very different, but they fit together very nicely, filling in the gaps. The guitar is great, of course. Nice song.
Geech: you have me at the riff right off. The chorus melody is punchy and fun, and I like the harmonies that come in there singing “Hope against hope,” but they feel like a first draft/take. It gets better as the song progresses, so I think the first time it needs another take. End is a little abrupt, but not horribly so. The song is well balanced, but I would have liked a little more vocal in general; right now they sound a little submerged.
Leppakron: you do a great job of making it all sound like it’s in the same room. I like the harmonica. This is like early Bowie meets country (the one genre he says he never explored). The more I listen the more I hear all the various sounds, like that cool morphing synth in my right ear. It’s really well put together. I close my eyes and I’m in a barn-turned-bar on a Friday night drinking a beer with the locals while the band played on the other side of the room.
Lowest bitter: ooh out of tune piano- I like. There’s something about your vocals that reminds me of the Beatles- until you go into falsetto, which is still a lovely tone. I like the oohs (or is that a guitar doing that?). The lyrics are super hard to make out, but I did make out the title, but little else. Reading what you posted, I like the literary tie in. Too short it rolls up looks around, and leaves. Needs a development.
Not Blue Dolphins: uuuuugh your voices sound soooo good together. The timbre is perfectly matched on the chorus, and the verse vocal is a nice accent. I will say about the verse- the vocals sometimes sound a bit enervated, which isn’t bad as a sound, but it makes them a bit pitchy. Try and find that relaxed tone without losing vocal control. I really like this song. Another good song to drive to.
Paco: Your Instruments are really great, with a lush tone and. Solid mix, so that makes me a little disappointed when the vocals come in. They seem mixed a little low, or like their missing their lower partials. I dunno; they sound stringer than usual. This almost sounds like Bowie. Great solo.
Possum Sauce: this is absolutely my favorite song. You have an absolutely beautiful voice, and a wonderfully delicate way of using vocal harmony. I love the flute solo, and in general the reserved quality of all the playing that makes what upon scrutiny must be many instruments sound like so few. It’s an intimately hopeful song, like something a parent would sing to their child, and it brings me peace. The lyrics are a delightful juxtaposition of these hopeless positions with an unendingly hopeful attitude. Doesn’t matter that the world will end; we’re in it. I hope you win. It’s so short, but I just end up playing it again. It’s like an English folk song, short and sweet, easy to sing on a clear summers day.
Third Cat: I like your vocals, particularly when you double track. I hope to hear more of these unprocessed takes from you, as it really lets shine your natural tone which is so please to hear. That synth at the end is a really nice way to end things, too. It seems to match the timbre of your voice well.
Tom skillman: The chorus is great break in the repetitive pattern of the verses, which are fine, but the music mostly serves to set up the chorus. The harmonies sound really great together, especially the backing vox in the prechorus. What is this about? Having to listen to a bad politician?
Travels with Brindle: This is sweet, though your vocal are a little pitchy. Easily fixed with a deeper breath, and I would encourage multiple takes, but it sounds like you did this all in one take. I’m somewhat impressed by the manual fade out. My personal hatred of ukuleles makes it hard for me to really get into. I bet I’d love this on a banjo. That’s a me problem though, not an issue with your song.
“It's like opera for toddlers or something.” -furrypedro
Nice fight, and thanks to everyone for the detailed reviews. Really interesting to get all these perpectives.
Here are some quick notes from me, but don't take anything the wrong way - I rarely know what I'm talking about.
Cybronica - Great singing, and that switch to solo voice is a beautiful moment. A real feeling of weariness/resilience with those emphatic chords starting each bar. Lyrics are heartfelt, maybe a little distant at times - a bit more detail might give the emotion more context - but your performance closes the distance.
(Edit: I just read your explanation, so understand why you chose to go a little opaque with the lyrics, but maybe too opaque? As a non-American, I didn't make the connection to US abortion laws from the song alone.)
Evil Grin - I like the arrangement, natural and full-sounding. Infectious enthusiasm. The lyrics push the religion pedal pretty hard, which doesn't leave much for us non-believers to chew on, but the basic sentiment's universal. Nice husky hallelujahs.
Geech Sorensen - Good solid riffing. The vocal melody on the verses doesn't seem hugely connected to the riff melody - still deciding if I like that, but it's interesting, and makes a nice contrast with the choruses, where the vocals and instruments blend more closely. In fact, that's my favourite part, the switch from bare bones verse to warmer chorus.
Leppakron - Really nice song, well-constructed, but I'm not a fan of how you dressed it. For me, the extra guitars undercut the song's strengths, hiding the movement of the chords and melody. I'd have preferred it without all the C&W trappings - just cleanly recorded rhythm guitar and voice, let the song shine. I like how things almost grind to a despairing halt on the 'sorry' bit.
Lowest Bitter - Lot of great touches here. I particularly like the slightly detuned piano-ish chimes in the first half. Vocal delivery fits the mood of the song, but the way it sits in the mix means I couldn't make out the lyrics. Yeah, nice blend of pop and experimentation.
Not Blue Dolphins - Good stuff, sunny and warm. I like the loose, spontaneous timing of the vocals against the tight instrumention. If I've got a nitpick it's the drums - good sound, but perhaps a bit disconnected from the rest of the mix (or maybe it's just the snare on the chorus).
Paco del Stinko - Lots of fun. Channels a bunch of things I like from 80s Britain: the mischievous, slightly goofy energy of early Elvis Costello, maybe a hint of XTC in the bridge. That delayed change on 'how much is enough?' is great. Probably my favourite of the month.
Possum Sauce - I'm hoping the tin whistles come across as 'charmingly out of tune' rather than 'oh god my ears are bleeding'. Sorry, recorded this in a hurry.
Third Cat - Lovely understated mood. The distant harmonium-like sounds are excellent, teasing at something larger. This does a lot with a little, and I love those intriguing sounds at the end.
Tom Skillman - Nice contrast between the tense, staccato 'London Calling' vibe of the verses and the lusher 'rant and rave' sections. Polished, full sound. Good stuff.
Travels with Brindle - I like your voice. Interestingly sparse melody, fixated on the same few notes. Possible downside of that: your voice is trapped in a single register, doesn't get to open up. Slow section is a nice idea and works well.
Hi there! I humbly present to you our podcast where we review the songs for the Hope Against Hope fight! This time around we're very pleased to be joined by our special guest Lichen Throat!
Tom Skillman:. What is this about? Having to listen to a bad politician?
It could be lol. In fact, that's a great interpretation, I appreciate that.
In a perfect world, I believe a songwriter (or poet's) words should generate the reader (or listener's) own, personal belief and connection to a song.
So, if someone listens and relates to it, who am I to say "what it's about?"
I prefer that scenario, and I think it's a tough thing to accomplish too (maybe that's why I like that concept!)
I wrote a song a few years ago, while waiting for a few people show up at my place; and when I played the song for a few people, they all told me "this is about Joe!! Man, that's so awesome, this is about Joe". (Joe was a guitarist and friend who died in 2004).
Well, Joe had nothing to do with the song, yet, I instantly saw why they would think that.
That was a proud moment for me, because it was the first time I was aware of that affect with something I wrote.
So, for them, it IS about Joe.
To answer your question directly, I asked myself.. "what does 'hope against hope' mean anyway?"
It seemed to me that it was wishing someone else's expectation for a good outcome would fail.
So then it was... "well, in what scenario would you hope for someone else to fail?"
And the conclusion for me was " it's about people who think the world should support their needs and desires just because they want them; and through no actually effort of their own, and they present it to the world as a deserved expectation (or hope!) .
There are personal scenarios where I relate to that thought VERY well.. so I can see why my delivery is interpreted by some as a "sneer".. cause it is!
Okay a few things:
1. I found this nerve racking at first. I went with my real name... on a dare.. .to myself..lol. Do you got the brass to put a SF thing, half baked as it is; out on Songfight? So, it's WAY easier to hear someone talk about "leaf" than Tom Skillman. Fortunately, I made it through with little mental health issue so.. mission accomplished? lol.
2. The non-sequitor 3 minute Kyle talk alleviated that,for sure. I had to laugh (I listened to this on my way to work) because I am guilty of that ALL the time. I was thinking "is this a clever reference to your habit of indulging your ADHD? lol. Plus, I didn't know ANYTHING about that, so it was super informative. Thank you.
3. My brother's name is Kyle... so I heard it like that at first. Started to wonder if I knew you all somehow lol. I was like.. ."what? Kyle? How the fuck?? lol)
4. Your positive comments are much appreciated. Thank you.
5. Two things bug me about my entry; you nailed one of them. I wrote lyrics, then music, then tried to come up with a melody...and its' something I've rarely been able to accomplish when I write in that order! I agree 100%. IF this was a song I was going to pursue (which I don't think I will..but!) it would need a MUCH stronger melody in the main vocal. It's too monotone. I tried to come up with something else, but time, lack of ideas lead me back to this. I "hoped" that I might get away with it... but I kinda knew I wasn't going to. You confirmed that. It would need a re-write on that if this song was going to be performed live or go on a album.
6. I also think the guitar leads are merely okay, but nothing special about them. If this was going somewhere, I"d ask one of my talented guitar friends to create the melody lines. In my head, I'd rather hear some tasty melody phrasing that picked it up each time. I feel like my parts are placeholders for that idea. Sometimes I find out that what was needed was another instrument...but my keyboard work is SO SLOW (takes me ages to get parts down, as I am a step by step midi programmer at best, and my playing skill is super basic). I wish I had some ability with flutes and other winds... I would LOVE to put together something Beatles like with multiple instruments used for their specific timbre...but not in my league at the moment! So... maybe this song would benefit from that, I dunno?
Thank you again for the cool review style. I think one day I'm going to totally rip off the podcast style and do reviews that way myself, because it sounds fun!! You all are the first one's I've heard do this, so I don't know if this is a unique thing to SF or if others since I've been absent have done it as well but it's very interesting, and you can hear in your speaking tones what your emotional view is as well, so it' s much easier to listen to the criticism as it can be when you read it in your own voice, in your own head! Thank you!
cool podcast, neat to hear Lichen Throat talk about his process. (and I very much agree with the love for the Possom Sauce song, definitely my favorite of the fight.)
Excellent podcast, very much enjoyed hearing from Lichen Throat! And I like that we got a sizable diversion into talking about fade-outs in a fight with no fade-outs.
I enjoyed the podcast and hearing from Lichen Throat, lots of interesting insights and comments as always (I especially liked the part where you said you liked my Bend the Knee song, haha) and it's also fascinating hearing more about that whole painstaking composition process with MuseScore--definitely does sound like skipping directly from zero to extra-hard mode.
Cybronica--Ahh, such pretty, heartfelt vocals and piano. Your harmonies are lovely and really well executed, although I think I would have preferred them to come in and out gradually rather than being all over on every vocal almost all the way through, to give the song a bit more ebb and flow in intensity over time. The chorus melody is really wonderful (it reminds me a bit of the Pretenders song "Hymn to Her"), I love how your voice soars up to a clear high note on "purity"! I did enjoy this, but thought the song felt a bit long, so I think it could probably stand a bit of editing or some arrangement tweaks to keep the listener's interest. The lyrics are emotional but vague, with some weaker lines like "I'm feeling blue," that feels a bit cliched, and I think actually reading your explanation of them in the thread made them more powerful, so if you do decide to rework it, I would love seeing your inspiration and message made a bit more raw and clear. Great job though, it was a really gorgeous song and one of the standouts in this fight for me!
Evil Grin--well, my parents are atheists and I was never forced to go to church or Sunday school, so unlike apparently a lot of people commenting here, the "amen" "hallelujah" didn't really bother me on any personal level... I have a soft spot for the old-timey revival/gospel songs collected in the Smithsonian Folkways box sets and this kind of reminds me of those. I really like the duet arrangement, your voices work nicely together, although Amanda's vocal does sound a bit more throaty and muffled than TC's, which is nice and clear. Very nice performances from both of you, IMO, not sure why there were some complaints about this elsewhere! You have a good catchy melody in the prechorus and chorus--the verses seemed a bit less strong in terms of melody and lyrics, I think I'd revisit some choices like rhyming "see" with "see" and the delivery on "looks of jealousy," or "set the captives free," which I think could probably work but both currently sound rhythmically awkward as delivered. It's your song, and this is more of a genre/personal taste type of choice, but if I were arranging it, I'd probably lean away from the electric guitar stuff and the adult contemporary worship vibe and towards more old-timey acoustic instrumentation, with more vocal layers and harmonies on the chorus. I liked this and voted for it, for the record, but it seems that bias against religious songs here is hard to overcome.
Geech Sorensen--I like the loose, garagey feel to this and the guitar riffs playing off each other--love the "call" guitar in the call-and-response breakdown around where around 1:55 you stop playing the rest between phrases (I don't know if this makes sense, hopefully you understand the part I mean). There are a couple of higher/brighter guitar parts that feel like they stand out too much in the mix where the rest has a bit of a fuzzy washed-out feel--particularly the "response" guitar in the breakdown starting around 1:49. The chorus was my favorite part--I love the interplay of the lead and backing vocals in the chorus. The verses started to lose me a bit, as I didn't feel like they hung together as well as the chorus and didn't seem very tightly edited in terms of overall song structure--I think perhaps a slightly faster tempo would be good for keeping the verses feeling peppy? The lyrics weren't really specific enough for my taste, but it's not that easy to make them out in any case, and this song seems like it's more about what's happening on the guitars and in the general vibe than the vocals... they scanned well (especially the more held-out delivery on "I hope against hope" at the end, which I really liked) and that's probably the most important part in a song like this. Also, I'm super impressed to hear this was your first mix in a DAW, nice!
Leppakron--There are some really gorgeous, poignant melodic moments in the vocal (although there are some pitchy bits too that could have used another take or two) BUT I feel like the guitars are doing their absolute best to distract the listener from noticing this. I loved the tune on that "sorry" line around 00:50, for instance, but there is so much else going on with the lead guitar noodling that it's hard to focus on that! Also, everything feels too reverb'd out to me. I would have liked to have heard this in a more conventional arrangement that emphasizes that vocal melody, and maybe with a bit of editing to find those strong melodic hooks and repeat them in a more structured way. I think you have the bones of a good song here, but it was so hard to focus on that with the arrangement you have here. If you feel like posting a version with those guitars muted, I'd be curious to hear it stripped-back.
The Lowest Bitter--love the vocal melody on that chorus, it's so catchy where it goes up to "tomorrow"! I love the inspiration as well, I think your take on the title was my favorite of all of these. The verse lyrics felt a bit thin to me, though; it seems like there would be a lot of great details you could pull from the source material that might be more specific. Lots of nice arrangement details, I like that fat crunchy synth bass arpeggio and all the vocal layers, LOVE the plucked ukulele noise and the detuned synth lead. I would have liked the lead verse vocal to be doubled maybe, or EQ'd/effected differently; it somehow felt a bit thin compared to the other parts that come in with harmonies and layers. I think the standout for me overall is the chorus--that's what made the song into another favorite of the fight for me.
Not Blue Dolphins--I do like your one-string solo, but it also kind of reminds me of "I Want It That Way" by the Backstreet Boys a little bit, no offense. I like the timbre of everyone's voices and love the way you trade off vocal duties with each other--the harmonies sound great, but the recording of the vocals sounded frequently a bit odd and muffled to me, I don't know if it's just whatever mic you were using or something with the mix/EQ/reverb settings. A couple of people have mentioned finding the verse vocals too loose, timing-wise--I took the unconventional timing as a stylistic choice, actually, and aside from a few moments where I found the phrasing a bit strange (e.g. "wanes, doesn't disappear," "then/nothing's," "from/some" all felt unnatural to me), it really didn't bother me. The verse vocals did feel quite pitchy to me, though, and that grated on me a bit. Despite the execution details, I did find this one of the most memorable songs of the fight.
Paco del Stinko--Really like that jangly guitar, and the overall production and performance were obviously great as they always are with your submissions. I particularly liked the vocal melody in the bridge, but the rest of the vocals had this kind of nonstop, non-hooky, kind of constantly flowing vibe that never really grabbed me and caught my attention. Like it was all just kind of there and it all worked, and if you played me any given 5 seconds of the song I'd say it was great, but taken as a whole, I wanted to feel more of a clear structure and differentiation between individual lines and parts.
Possum Sauce--This is my favorite song of the fight; it's just so subtly weird and beautiful, it has a gorgeous melody, and your vocal has this delicate, intimate sadness and resignation to it that I just love, particularly where you go up to the higher notes in the melody. Those soft little harmonies on "the world's fucked over" and "hope" are just wonderful. The lyrics are excellent, wry and understated, particularly the opening lines "world's on fire, we all die, and I broke my pencil"--what a lyrical hook. The guitar playing and the tastefully layered piano suit the vibe perfectly. The tin whistle solo reminded me a bit of the ending of of Queen's "39". Enjoyed this SO much all around, I keep listening to it over and over.
Third Cat--this doesn't feel like your tightest performance or most ambitious production, but I do really like the chiming guitar and particularly love that whirring effected guitar at the end. The lift in that "hope against hope" line is very effective. Because I am me, I wish there were more lyrics here and more vocal layers--I do like the kind of hypnotic aspect of repeating the same lyrics, but I feel like it's crying out for a vocal countermelody with long held notes on top of the second go-round. (Speaking of cats, your kind of sparse/dreamy/repetitive arrangement reminds me a bit of Cat Power on this one.)
Tom Skillman--great performances, all very polished and nicely produced but the song itself at its core didn't really grab me; I think I wanted the vocal melody and rhythms to go to some more adventurous places, but they mostly stayed pretty well within the bounds you set. I liked some of your lyrics a lot, like "Hope against hope, and what it implies, / There's two kinds of hope, one is truth, one a disguise", while others felt a bit clunky, like "makes you despise" (I want a direct object for that verb!), "what you lack is charm and grace," (that whole "what you lack is..." phrase feels really awkward and indirect to me, like you're only phrasing it that way to make it scan in the lyrics) "without real chase" (this phrase just kind of confused me--the rest of the tone is pretty straightforward, while this is pretty elliptical, so it feels like you've only used this in order to rhyme, but it doesn't fit in with the conversational tone of the rest of the song). I liked the tremolo guitar, but would have appreciated more of a change-up with it; it started to feel like a lot by the end of the song. Great execution overall.
Travels With Brindle--this is a lovely vocal, although I do think this could have used another take or two; there are notes (throughout the first verse in particular) that I think you're not quite hitting. I like the variations in your strumming pattern, and the chorus melodies are nice and hooky. I also like the tenderness and compassion in your lyrics; I think your storytelling was my favorite part of this song, although I would have liked to have seen the lyrics posted up in the forum for easier reference.
(oh and speaking of ukuleles, and fadeouts, there's a community ukulele group that I haven't gone to in years but used to play in for fun all the time, and it sometimes drove me nuts because the group leader kept insisting on trying to end songs with fadeouts, simply because the original versions of the songs we were covering ended in a fadeout. But it's real damn hard to get 30 amateur ukulele players who are all playing the same thing at the same time on an instrument with a fairly limited dynamic range to all fade out in any kind of consistent way at the same time, and frankly I don't think any song that was originally electric guitar/drums/bass that you're now arranging for 30 ukuleles is going to fool anyone into thinking it sounds exactly like the original song. end rant.)
Congrats to Possum sauce and Tom Skillman . Two pretty great songs.Keep it up.
As requested by Owl , a stripped down version ( exactly the same without the lead guitar )
Anyone who wants to overtrack a lead line or two, feel free.
I would love to hear a Jerkitorium , or Ryan cover version of this. Complete redo or just fix the embelishments, either would be cool.
Congrats to Possum sauce and Tom Skillman . Two pretty great songs.Keep it up.
As requested by Owl , a stripped down version ( exactly the same without the lead guitar )
Anyone who wants to overtrack a lead line or two, feel free.
I would love to hear a Jerkitorium , or Ryan cover version of this. Complete redo or just fix the embelishments, either would be cool.
Forgot to reply earlier--thanks for posting this, enjoyed it a lot in its stripped-down format, you can really hear what's happening now!
No promises, but if you post up lyrics/chords I might give a cover a shot.
Congrats to Possum sauce and Tom Skillman . Two pretty great songs.Keep it up.
As requested by Owl , a stripped down version ( exactly the same without the lead guitar )
Anyone who wants to overtrack a lead line or two, feel free.
I would love to hear a Jerkitorium , or Ryan cover version of this. Complete redo or just fix the embelishments, either would be cool.
Forgot to reply earlier--thanks for posting this, enjoyed it a lot in its stripped-down format, you can really hear what's happening now!
No promises, but if you post up lyrics/chords I might give a cover a shot.
From June 12 to roughly now I've been away, so I missed all this. I'm glad some people liked the song, and I'd love to hear a cover if anyone still feels like it. You don't have to overtrack a lead line or two, if you don't want to
I'll post words and rough chords to the lyrics thread.
