grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
Caravan Ray wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:58 am
Yep. How is that working for you? Those of us outside your bubble are a little concerned.
I know it seems crazy, but
we're doing pretty well by our historical standard. You know, we had a Civil War in the 1860s, and somehow we didn't need to toss our Constitution for that.
Side-note: if our citizens used guns like you thought they did, we would have a much bigger mess on our hands right now.
Yes. Guns are just a bit of fun. I get that
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
Caravan Ray wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:46 am
But unfortunately - all of the key founding fathers of the USA were rich old white dudes - the majority slave owners - who simply found a way to exploit the ongoing the war between Britain and France as a way of avoiding paying tax.
You are smart enough to know
that's an over-simplification not worth debating.
Yup. No point debating simple historical fact. The USA was created by the privileged few who wanted to avoid paying tax, so they wrote their own rule book. And surprise surprise! Here we are 250 years later, with the same rulebook - the privileged few who don't want to pay tax are still running the joint. The only difference is that amongst the original rich dudes and slave owners, there were some genuine intellectuals. Nowadays we talk about injecting bleach.
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
Caravan Ray wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:46 am
In Australia, many of us think that our Constitution should contain a preamble where it is acknowledged that our continent was inhabited for 80,000 years before the UK declared it 'terra nulls' and took it.
I know Australian English isn't the same as American English, so you must not be familiar with what a "rule book" is. It is a book of rules - not a historical document.
A good Rule Book has an Introduction. The Introduction to a Rule Book sets out the purpose for which the rules are being made, the scope of the activities to which the rules apply, and any background information which may clarify or provide context as to why the rules are being set.
Many Aboriginal people in Australia have indicated that they would like a Preamble to our Constitution which acknowledges the original owners, because they believe that it may heal old wounds and promote inclusivity in our society. As the
Uluru Statement from the Heart says, Aboriginal sovereignty of the land
has never been ceded or extinguished, but co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown. It is a simple statement that simply gives our Constitution context. It does no harm to anyone - and if it makes others feels more part of our society - seems like a no-brainer.
Particularly as Crumpart posted earlier about the anniversary of the Mabo decision. That decision led to the Native Title Act which put into legislation that very idea - that European settlement did not automatically extinguish Aboriginal sovereignty.
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
This is the sort of token gesture that just makes guilty people feel better without doing a single thing of consequence. The fact of the matter is: you cannot undo the horrific wrongs. All you can do is to be better people.
It seems like your country wants to place the indigenous people in a real-life museum so you don't have to share society with them, because that is difficult.
Acknowledging the previous owners of our continent in our Constitution is placing "
the indigenous people in a real-life museum so you don't have to share society with them".....
Ok...we seem to be entering "old man shouts at cloud" territory here.
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
That is such a British thing to do. As long as you have a two-track justice system - one that allows people to be consensually beaten and stabbed, and the other that follows Western protocol - you will never have an integrated populace. Yes, we have a
de-facto two-track justice system too, but we don't fetishize it and are ashamed of it.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Sure - consensual beatings can be fun between an international recording artist and his special friends when whipped cream is involved - but I'm not sure why this conversation moved onto Caravan Ray's leisure time?
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
Further, by your own logical standard, in 20 years you'll find out that one of the people who wrote that preamble is guilty of something, so you'll have to throw it out. In 100 years, you'll have evidence that those people weren't living in a peaceful utopia before the white man, and actually murdered the poor original indigenous people 300,000 years ago, so you'll have to add that to the preamble.
Evidence of homo sapiens in Australia 300,000 years ago would be astonishing news of international importance, not just Australia. So yes - it probably would be worth adding to the preamble. Documents are not set in stone. They can be improved.
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
The American Way is to hate ourselves in times of peace so that we can come together in times of difficulty.
No. The American Way is for the privileged to exploit the downtrodden. The USA's history is a history of slavery. This must be acknowledged. You cannot gloss over it by trying to pretend that Jefferson and Franklin etc were gentlemen of the enlightenment. The USA was built on slavery. Admit it. Own it. For you to claim anything else's is simply obscene.
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
That's the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution starts, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a
more perfect
Union". It doesn't say "In order to be perfect immediately" or "in order to cement our perfection in history" or "in order to be a separate but okay people".
Yep. My bad. Mixed up my old privileged slave-owner written documents. Easy thing to do. They all use flowery language about how cool and woke they all are - yet it probably all sounds pretty hollow nowadays to the decsendants of their slaves - wondering why, 250 years later - there is still one system of justice for some, but a different one for others.
grumpymike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:31 am
We murdered countless of
each other in an incredibly bloody Civil War in order to further the goals of that union. Pray-tell, what real sacrifice have Australians made to further equality?
"
We murdered countless of each other in an incredibly bloody Civil War in order to further the goals of that union"
That is truly the stupidest excuse for mass murder I have ever seen.
OK - but lets get back to the initial crux of this conversation.
The USA has issues at the moment.
I suggested that some of this issues relate to an out of date Constitution.
Yesterday - as I understand it - your President threatened to use US Military in Washington DC..
How on earth can one man have that power? The Queen cannot order troops in anywhere. The Governor General of Australia cannot direct troops. If you live in a country where one fat orange man can say where troops go. You have a really big fucking problem.
You need a new constitution.