Th' Daily Grind Iron Man Challenge (of comics)

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am

I think I'd feel the same way if Mario showed up at my Ball hockey game and starting going "Oh man, I'm so gonna waste you, I have the highest goals per game average in PROFESSIONAL history... you guys are so toast... "

Like, duh, you're mostly(or were, anyway) likely the greatest hockey player on the planet, but dude, I'm trying to play here.. give it a rest and play too and let teh cards fall where they may...

You know, the jokes really on them though... if they do win, they rubbed the obvious in everyone's faces, and they are assholes for it. If they lose, they rubbed everyone's faces in it, AND they're losers. I don't see how this can be anything but good!

Now, if they were all cool about it, and just played the game, then you would be all sour grapes, but judging from your post (I've only been reading a couple comics, I got no idea what the background communication is...) ... I 'd think there's nothing to fret... other than a ukelele...

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:53 am

Maybe he is an asshole, I have no idea -- never met the guy. But I tell you what, i love it when Front enters a fight, and I always hope he's in a fight that I'm in. Because not only does it get more people listening to my song (granted most people would skip me, but the key word is "more"), but more importantly I know i'll have a great song to gauge my own song against. Which is the best way for me to improve.

Leaf, your analogy is flawed b/c your hockey game is for amateurs who are happy as amateurs, but the comic challenge is, as far as I can tell, full of amateurs who would give their left arm to be professionals. If you seriously wanted to play hockey on the pro level, playing with Mario would be a golden opportunity. Here on SF, I think at least half of us are happy as amateurs. But even if I'm happy as an amateur (jury's still out on that one), if Beck came in and was like "I'm gonna kick all your asses," but at the same time, took time to write reviews and linked to us from his site, I'd be pissing my pants out of excitement.

Heather. Redmon. · Post by **Heather. Redmon.** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:05 am

c hack wrote: Leaf, your analogy is flawed b/c your hockey game is for amateurs who are happy as amateurs, but the comic challenge is, as far as I can tell, full of amateurs who would give their left arm to be professionals.

Yeah, but you're just assuming that the people in the grind are striving to be more than amateurs... the competition was originally a challenge among a small group of people who were looking to establish a regular schedule via a friendly wager of last man standing. As far as I can tell, the idea of becoming pro from it or because of it was never an intended outcome. The scene only became what it is now because guys like Kurtz and DJ came in and started trash talking. I'm sure that if any one of the artists participating in the challenge were to receive some type of acclaim or a job offer, they'd be beside themselves with joy, but I don't think that was why most of the grinders entered in the first place.

-end

Post by jb » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:08 am

Heather. Redmon. wrote:The same thing happens when MC Frontalot enters a fight. There is a lot of traffic, but it never really pays off for anyone else but Frontalot, does it?

I know I have blasphemed against MC Frontalot, but you brought him up.

Have a nice day

Well, don't assume it pays off for Frontalot. The dude's not really a publicity hound, and entering a songfight sure wouldn't be the way to go about it if he were. Sure he'll win, but in the process a thousand more people will have the opportunity to hear that Hell Yeahs song. I update the stats on a pretty regular basis, so you could go see for yourself next time this happens.

Plus we have a new Frontalot song in the Song Fight archive forever.

I dunno man, griping like this always rubs me the wrong way. It's like there's something for him (or whoever) to gain, when really there isn't. No offense, Heather, but it feels to me like you're picking on a guy who's nicer than nice, and for no reason other than sour grapes. There are so many assholes in the world, why spend time cutting down the good people?

I think that if the "grind" people didn't want the pros to enter, they should have stipulated that, or made it a closed competition. That Kurtz and DJ wold trash-talk doesn't speak well for them, but still their presence is gonna get a lotta more viewers on that competition, and a few of them will trickle down to Phil, y'know? And if his stuff's good enough to keep their eyeballs, then that's rad.

I mean, if these guys are making such a nuisance of themselves that it outweighs the benefits of their presence, that's one thing, but unless that's the case, then how is their presence anything but beneficial to the other artists in the contest?

*shrug* I'm not involved in the cartoon thing, but I will defend "popular" artists who want to enter Song Fight. That particular complaint gets my dander up every time.

JB

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:22 am

c hack wrote:Why is there such a lashing against anyone who's made it big?

c hack wrote:Maybe he is an asshole

It's not that people dislike those who are popular, it's that people dislike those who are assholes. If people dislike a popular asshole, it's because of his assholishness, not his popularity.

Heather. Redmon. · Post by **Heather. Redmon.** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:28 am

This is a VERY true statement. 15-16, you are wise!

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:33 am

I hear ya JB... I'm certainly not saying that in my little post up there (not that you are directed it at me)

However Josh, my analogy IS NOT flawed, your assumption is. Anyone that devotes time at something they love has the desire to be "pro" in some sort of definition, IMO... and let's not get all sematical and dissect my choice of words... I'm sure some weiner is gonna say "oh, not me".. go ahead and say that. But if a record exec plunks down a wad of cash and says, "hey, your what I'm looking for, go pro" not many would actually turn it down. we might try and negotiate terms, but I sincerely doubt we'd turn it down.

This isn't the point anyway.
I would LOVE TO PLAY hockey with Mario!! The guy's a freaking genius. I'm merely saying that if someone with more success, or with more skill, or whatever, starts trash talking and being a dick (which, I do not first hand know is what is happening here, I'm merely supporting H.R.'s vent) that I would have a problem with it, because the person is being a dick. Flaunting their superiority... If Bryan Adams, Tool and Celine Dion enter songfight, great. If they win, great. If they come in, say "I have the best engineers and professionals on the planet, I got a budget, I'm gonna kick your ass" I'd think they were all assholes. This is the point I got out of Heather's post... I may be wrong about her intentions or opinion, but it's what I got out of it... , I see no flaw in the anology whatsoever. I never said we were happy being amateurs... I'm certainly not happy that my drumming life is confined to being the go-to guy on a little island... but I don't run around rubbing other drummers who can't do what I do around here in the dirt simply because they didn't have the teachers, resources, parental support or time. (Not that I'm a genius or Mario on the drums, just saying.. )

Oh, and if some scout thought I was good enough to be a pro hockey player (and I'm most certainly not!) I'd do it. Fucking rights.
Likewise, if I got a call and someone said, "dude, we need a studio drummer and we like your sound and style, " I'd do that too.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:35 am

Ok. So 15-16 said it more succinctly.

Heather. Redmon. · Post by **Heather. Redmon.** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:38 am

jb wrote: Well, don't assume it pays off for Frontalot. The dude's not really a publicity hound, and entering a songfight sure wouldn't be the way to go about it if he were. Sure he'll win, but in the process a thousand more people will have the opportunity to hear that Hell Yeahs song. I update the stats on a pretty regular basis, so you could go see for yourself next time this happens.

Plus we have a new Frontalot song in the Song Fight archive forever.

I dunno man, griping like this always rubs me the wrong way. It's like there's something for him (or whoever) to gain, when really there isn't. No offense, Heather, but it feels to me like you're picking on a guy who's nicer than nice, and for no reason other than sour grapes. There are so many assholes in the world, why spend time cutting down the good people?

JB

Hey, I'm not picking on Frontalot, I have no opinion on him one way or the other, I only mentioned him because C Hack did. I never ever said that Frontalot was an asshole... you put those words in my mouth, I said that Kurtz and DJ are assholes. Dude, I wasn't even talking about Frontalot in my original reply to C Hack, he was. I never said anything negative about him, or "popular" artist entering Songfight... lay off me ok! This is all I said:

Heather. Redmon. wrote:
The same thing happens when MC Frontalot enters a fight. There is a lot of traffic, but it never really pays off for anyone else but Frontalot, does it?

I know I have blasphemed against MC Frontalot, but you brought him up.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:45 am

I think that some of what I said may have been misattributed to others. I was speaking about assholes in the general sense, and not really trying to call anyone one, certainly not MC Frontalot, who as jb simply said, is "nicer than nice".

Aloha.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:47 am

I didn't get that impression from you... it came accross like "generally", and not specifically. As in... you were on the mark. And did not come accross as a blasphemer.

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:57 am

15-16 puzzle wrote:
c hack wrote:Why is there such a lashing against anyone who's made it big?

c hack wrote:Maybe he is an asshole
It's not that people dislike those who are popular, it's that people dislike those who are assholes. If people dislike a popular asshole, it's because of his assholishness, not his popularity.

I said maybe. I really doubt it though. I've been reading his comic for two or three years now, and from the posts he seems like a great guy. Go over to his site right now and read what he had to say about the grind people:

http://www.pvponline.com

I didn't want to spend hours wading through the grind forums looking for examples of him being an asshole, but I'd be curious enough to click on a link if one of you posted one.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:07 pm

I'm not trying to prove he's an asshole. I don't know him, don't read webcomics in particular, nor his in specific, and I don't really want to start wading through posts* to a website from the author of a webcomic I don't even read. My point is this: if you don't think he's an ass, that's cool. If other people do, then THAT is their reason for not liking him.

*unless it's really easy to find.

EDIT: Gawd, the guy says this: "So that's why I'm being a hard ass. I'm trying to return the favor. But I don't think I'm very good at it. I think I'm just alienating everone."

Post by **Spud** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:41 pm

I have read pretty much the whole thing, from every angle that I could find linked, and here is what I find funny about it.

Kurtz is mostly complaining about changing the rules midstream. However, he wants to knock people off the island based on the new rule. You can't have it both ways, dude.

The irony is that if they had left the rule alone (which was ambiguous at best), they would not have been able to kick anyone off using it anyway, since it was open to interpretation. They would have had to say "it is open to interpretation, and the artist in question has a valid interpretation".

Personally, that is what I would have done rather than tightening up the rule, but the results would have been the same, with the exception that Kurtz would have been arguing that the rule should be changed, rather than arguing against it.

And by the way, Frontalot is in fact a very nice guy.

jack · Post by **jack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:08 pm

kurtz posted something about this on his site.

http://pvponline.com/

maybe i'm missing something but he hardly comes across as an asshole to me.

Heather. Redmon. · Post by **Heather. Redmon.** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:11 pm

jack shite wrote:kurtz posted something about this on his site.

http://pvponline.com/

maybe i'm missing something but he hardly comes across as an asshole to me.

He's been a pretty big jerk on the Daily Grind messageboard... but then again, so has Phil, so I don't know what I even opened my big mouth about in the first place.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:42 pm

Well, after reading a sampling of his posts on that messageboard, I'd say that (at times) he is both an asshole and an idiot. It's pretty hard to see other points of view sometimes, but when presented with overwhelming evidence that there is more than one way to interpret "Every 10 strips you may produce a one panel strip", refusal to accept that this is an ambiguous statement is ignorant; when he claims that everyone thought the way that he did, it became idiotic. And then when he wanted some other dude booted from the contest for actually *following* the rule "If you cannot update your site, you can post your strip somewhere else online provided you tell the contest runners where that somewhere else is", well, that's when he showed himself to be an asshole too.

If he was here right now, and he had a burrito, I would take it from him and eat it.

Post by **Spud** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:17 pm

Eric, that "clarification" was posted after the fact. Nowhere in the original rules, however, did it state where you had to post the comic. Some assumed that you had to post on your regular website - hence the clarification.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:44 pm

Ahhh, I was just going by this post in the thread:

http://bentcomics.msgbrd.com/viewtopic. ... ght=#20444

Post by **Spud** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:27 pm

Yeah, this was the original rule:

If an artist cannot post strips for a period of time (ie vacation, etc...), they must post strips for days to be missed in advance or find someone to update their sites for them.

and I believe this "clarification" was added:

If an artist needs to post strips somewhere other than his/her regular site, they must post a link to the strip in the Daily Grind forum. Artists may post strips in the forum as proof of completion.

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:10 pm

That's why songfight is better. We email the songs and they're all in one spot. No mucking about with posting it to your own site late but claiming you did it on time, or anything like that. Spud, why don't you go over there and show them how to do it right ;]

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:23 pm

I am very late to the fray, but I just wanted to add:

Frontalot wins because his songs are good. He is also an amazingly awesome person. I say this as someone who drank beer at his apartment until 5 in the morning last weekend while chatting about all sorts of stuff, as part of an after-show party which he invited <em>the entire audience</em> to. His humor is self-effacing and shows a great amount of humility unless you're just totally dense and think the "I am the greatest rapper ever!" schtick is for real.

Kurtz is an asshole whose comic isn't even funny to people who aren't in his highly-vocal mob, and who takes every opportunity to belittle the work of others who he doesn't like for whatever reason. He might be great in person but considering that his asshole self is him speaking as himself and <em>not</em> as some fictitious alter-ego makes me think that he's probably really, truly an asshole. But if he ever invites a decent-sized crowd of (mostly) total strangers into his home and has beer and conversations with them until 5AM, I might change my opinion.