My mix sounds different on headphones and monitors

[Egg]

I get the feeling that a lot of our songs sound drastically different on conventional hifi speakers and I was wondering if anybody knew how I could reconcile that difference? I mean, ideally, you listen to all of our tracks on headphones because that's the kind of music I'm making, but I would really like to only make people's ears bleed on purpose. Is there a frequency range that tends to sound way different on headphonse than on monitors? I've heard mixing with headphones is bad because you get too much bass from the headphones, but my problem isn't subtle like that. Thanks for any help.

PS, please take the opportunity to make a "your problem is the kind of music you're making" joke, but gimme real answers too!

[Rabid Garfunkel]

I don't have a clue. Are you using both speakers and headphones during your final mix? Headphones help separate all the elements/tracks in a mix, while speakers bounce it all around the room before it hits the brain.

Someone'll ask, so I might as well start it off... What headphones are you using? (There's a headphone thread around here somewhere, heh.)

Tip I just picked up: After mixing at full volume (c'mon, fess up, I know you do it ), dial the output volume back 50% (aka, turn it down) and listen again. Fine tune the mix at the lower volume, to make it sound right to your ears, and when you turn it back up, it should be clearer, too.

[jack]

i'm of the belief that the best way to get your mix right is to listen to it on the crappiest medium you can find. i know for a fact that neil young would record his mixes to cassette and listen to the rough mixdowns in his car stereo and that would help him figure out his mixing levels. in this day and age, that might involve encoding it at 64k and listen for what gets cut. or booms. panning works wonders. you get the idea.

there are various factors to consider that are just beyond your (as the artist) control. you have no control on how they (the listener) will hear it so why sweat it. mix it so it sounds good to you, whether it is through headphones, monitors, or a crappy cassette. it's your tune to make it sound the way you want.

everyone else just has a worthless opinion.

[Egg]

headphones: things I bought for like 30 bucks somewhere. They say Panasonic stereo headphones RP HT355 on the side.

advice so far: good.

thanks.

[Kamakura]

Most home systems are coloured, and it's only hi end studio gear that's totally flat, so I listen to a final rough mix on everything I can: Car stereo, mp3 player, small speakers, big speakers etc.

[j$]

Yeah mostly I only have time to mix on headphones, which means that listening to my stuff on speakers can sound thin and flat comparitively - but I assume that the majority of people listen to SF on headphones (for some reason) -

but stuff that has been mixed on speakers forgets to allow for the fact that the speakers (headphones) are pointed directly at the ears - not spread out in the more ambient setting of most speakers.

You could always take your speakers , point them towards each other then stick your head in the middle. That should give you some idea

j$

[Mostess]

For the first time on SongFight (and probably ever), I decided to mix this week's entry (Pieces of Eight) over speakers instead of headphones. I had already started tweaking over headphones and as soon as I listened over speakers, I:

• Boosted the bass on acoustic guitar
  Boosted low-mid on vocals
  Cut my high-frequency boosts on various sounds by about 1/2
  Panned things more
  Used a lot less compression

Incredible. At one point, I thought my thin sound was due to having crappy headphones, so I got better ones. This week, I'm lucky enough to have enough recorded days before the deadline. I was going to add more percussion, but I think I'll spend more time mixing.

If anyone wants to take a stab at mixing a fairly complicated Hostess Mostess song, PM me and we'll make it happen. I'm always curious about how different people like the same thing to sound.

(Note: post edited for clarity)

[deshead]

Don't mix through headphones: http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

Is there a frequency range that tends to sound way different on headphonse than on monitors?

In general headphones over-represent the bass and low-mid frequencies. This means you'll set the low frequencies too quiet, yielding mixes that sound lifeless through speakers. However, that's "in general". Every set of headphones has a different frequency response, some markedly so, and your particular pair may over-represent mids or highs. (Judging by your mixes, I'd say that's more likely the case.)

Most home systems are coloured, and it's only hi end studio gear that's totally flat, so I listen to a final rough mix on everything I can: Car stereo, mp3 player, small speakers, big speakers etc.

A fact of life for audio engineers: it's not possible to create a mix that sounds the same on all systems. Every set of speakers has its own properties, every listening environment dampens some frequencies and accents others, and many people use custom EQ settings that completely change the balance of a mix. So the goal when mixing is to create a mix that sounds decent on many systems, rather than perfect on one or two.

Professionals accomplish this by mixing through expensive studio monitors (speakers that represent all frequencies equally, rather than skewing the bass or treble like HiFi speakers do,) in an acoustically neutral listening space. But there are so many issues attendant with flattening the response of your monitors and mixing room that, for most amateurs, it's simply not practical. Instead, Kamakura's approach is the only option: listen to the mix everywhere, and adjust it until it sounds acceptable on all systems. (I have decent monitors and a treated room, but I still check evey mix through 2 sets of computer speakers, 2 sets of headphones, my home stereo, and my car.)

After mixing at full volume ... dial the output volume back 50% ... and listen again. Fine tune the mix at the lower volume, to make it sound right to your ears, and when you turn it back up, it should be clearer, too.

Ours ears have a completely uneven frequency response, but 85dB is the level at which they're most neutral. (Spend some time reading about Fletcher Munson curves .. There's also a good page on the site I can't link to.) But since it's safe to assume that people will listen to your mix a varying volume levels, it also makes sense to tweak your mix at different levels.

[RillaDope]

I hear ya, I have great headphones, but a poor mix representation and my montors are on the fritz so my last beat came out so heavy in the car (1000w, 2x10s) that I couldn't listen, then I dropped out some bass and now it's too light on headphones and small speakers. It's good on anything mid sized. Couldn't get it just right in one night so I left it. I'll try again when I get a spare sec.

[Bell Green]

My mixes sound different if they have been done on headphones or monitors. If I have mixed a track on monitors then it will sound ok on headphones, but not the other way round.

So, some tips.

Listen on all available speaker systems as discussed in previous posts.

Listen from the next room.

Mix in mono. That doesn't mean everything panned centre, you either get a crappy speaker and put everything through that or switch one off.

Take breaks. Not always possible with songfight, but definitely after the song has been tracked, don't start mixing. Leave it till the next day if poss. Stop the moment you get even slightly bored.

Listen to your mix at various overall volume levels. You could combine this with the last tip, so that you mix at low volume, take a break and then have another go at medium volume. Make sure you save each pass.

And lastly, about that bass. I haven't done this myself, but with commercial mixes an exciter is sometimes used to artifically add harmonics that aren't there. So a 110Hz bass note that isn't too well defined and would cause the speakers to rumble if it were louder is dealt with in another way. The exciter adds a higher harmonic of that note, say 880Hz. That gives the impression of the bass that isn't really there and makes it more clearly defined. Apparently these things are a bit tricky to use.

That's about all I can think of.