Absolute beginner on condensor mics

[neonpaul]

Hey there,

I've got no experience whatsoever of anything to do with music recording.
I've been lurking for a couple of days and picked up a couple of recording applications.

But I'm without a microphone for my acoustic.

Can you make any suggestions about where I should get one from? Does it need to be particularly expensive?

Thanks alot

[deshead]

Can you make any suggestions about where I should get one from?

If you're in the U.S., http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ usually can't be beat. Or your local music superstore. We have Long&McQuade here in Canada, and I'm often surprised how close they get to U.S. prices.

Does it need to be particularly expensive?

That depends on lots of things, but mostly: Your skill as a player, the type of music you'll be making, and whether you need to use the mic for anything else.

If you want to use the microphone for more than guitar, don't rule out a dynamic mic. The Shure SM57 is amazingly cheap ($50 on eBay,) and since it's dynamic you won't need an external power source to use it. The versatility, though, comes at the cost of reduced sonic detail. If you're talented and play with nuance, you probably won't be happy with anything but a condenser mic. The Studio Projects B1 and Rode NT1 are the standard "good quality cheapies", for about $100 on eBay. (You can pay MUCH more for a high-quality condenser mic, but without a professional mixing board and acoustically treated room, you're wasting your money. Based on your "no experience whatsoever" comment, I'd guess that's the case.)

The type of music you're making is also important because the character of the mic determines how the guitar sits in a mix. If the guitar is just a supporting instrument, you probably don't want it to jump out, so a dynamic mic is often a better choice. Alternately, if the guitar is the only instrument, then you may even want to stereo-mic it so you get a full rich sound. For that, the standard equipment is a pair of pencil condenser mics. You can find ML 603's for just over $100 if you hunt.

(Remember, too, that most condenser mics require phantom power, which means you'll either need a powered mixer or a pre-amp. That can be a deal-breaker for a lot of beginners)

[HeuristicsInc]

for phantom power, i used to be able to power my mic via the behringer mixer, but the phantom power just stopped working one day. i believe blue has something to say about behringer quality products. anyway, to replace that i picked up the presonus tubepre, which i've been happy with. i run my guitars and also vocals through it these days. it's $99 at audiomidi, but you can shop around if you want.
-bill

[Mostess]

No joke about phantom power. Condensor mics need electricity sent through their XLR cables. So you need to plug your XLR into a mixer or other transformer that has "phantom power".

I do have a very old Tascam condensor that uses a AA battery instead. That's pretty cool (not a great mic, but it sounds noticably better than a dynamic mic).

If you don't have such equipment, better to start with a dynamic mic.

[blue]

(You can pay MUCH more for a high-quality condenser mic, but without a professional mixing board and acoustically treated room, you're wasting your money. Based on your "no experience whatsoever" comment, I'd guess that's the case.)

this is hella false. there is a world of difference between the quality of a B1 or NT1 thru an RNP and a Nuemann w/the same preamp, room or no room. on our second album, we had a friend come in and record one song with his mics, and that song sounded a bazillion times better than everything else - and we were recording in a 10x10 sweaty closet. hell, go find the live MCF set from the accordian and listen to the difference in the drums on that (recorded with nuemanns) and every other live SFP set we did. the cheap mics - pretty much all of them - sound OK by themselves but really break down in a mix. i can't even listen to most of that album now because of the harsh, nasty sound of the B1s and C1s with which it was largely recorded.

or compare the difference in recording quality of C Hack (Neumann) or Josh Woodward (pair of C414 BULS) to that of everyone using the cheapo condensers. there is a difference. definately buy the best mic you can afford. even if you can't hear the difference now, there will come a point when you can, and you'll be glad you spent the money.

that said, if you're REALLY strapped for cash and just want to get started, i prefer the sound of the super-freakin-cheap MXLs, which start around $40, to the B1 for guitars and vocals. the MXLs are plasticky and mushy, but the SP mics have a strident hardness to the sound that doesn't translate well to guitars (imo). my "Blue Signal" and the Squalling Creatures' "Sunny Again" (from the songfight archives) are examples of an acoustic thru a B1. it sounds like aaaaaaassssz. the NT1 might be better - i've never used one.

[ken]

that said, if you're REALLY strapped for cash and just want to get started, i prefer the sound of the super-freakin-cheap MXLs, which start around $40, to the B1 for guitars and vocals.

I agree with Blue for the most part. Always buy the best gear you can afford.

I've used my B1 on just about all the songs I've done since I got mine, using it on acoustic, vocals, drum overhead. I like it a lot better than my MXL V67G. Which I rarely use anymore. I like it on female vocals though. I'm starting to get back into my MXL 603s for acoustic and possibly drum overheads as well. We'll see.

Ken

[jack]

everything i've recorded vocally and acoustically has been done with a B1 and i've got no beefs with it. best $100 i ever spent.

i think it's phil redmon's mic of choice as well.

[blue]

weird. no wonder you guys' acoustics always sound so bad.

maybe my acoustic just sucks too much for the B1. i've been using it exclusively for my floor tom lately, and it's pretty great on that.

i think it's a bad choice for a 'main mic' too because of the lack of bass rolloff. just seems like more work that it's worth.

[ken]

everything i've recorded vocally and acoustically has been done with a B1 and i've got no beefs with it. best $100 i ever spent.

i think it's phil redmon's mic of choice as well.

Wait, which B-1 are we talking about here? I've the Studio Projects one. I think Jack has the Behringer...




Ken

[jack]

ken is correct on both counts. i think redmon uses the behringer too.

i know blue hates behringer but i love them. light on the wallet.

[blue]

studio projects.

your acoustics (ken) always sound "funny," but good. i mean, they have a color that i like, but they don't have the classic "good acoustic sound" like the joshes get. you have nice pres and comps, tho.

i just can't believe Phil Ab would use a Behringer B1 on everything. that makes me sad. i know Jack has a history of slandering the Redmons, tho, so i'll chalk this up to that.

i don't recall a Jack tune w/raw acoustics.

i was really excited to see AKG has a set of low-cost SDCs out now (the 430, iirc), but then i downloaded the info sheet. massive treble boost from 5k up = CHINESE GARBAGE MIC. why can't anyone make a cheap SDC that isn't a tinnitus factory?

[roymond]

I use the Rode N3 for vocals.

For guitars I now pair the Rode N3 with an AKG C 535 set at angles: the N3 facing the fret board, the AKG facing the bridge, away from the hole as described in the "how to record guitars" thread.

I had a $100 MXL which broke within a year, so I don't consider that a good deal. I hear many people's stories of how fragile they are. But I do want a larger diaphram.

Surely I don't know how to properly use these yet.

[blue]

wouldn't you get a better sound by pointing the mic AT the soundhole, but moving it back? i don't think you want to control volume by going off-axis, unless you're CRRRRRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZZZYYYY. but you want to keep the mic far enough back to avoid the cardioid whuff zone.

[Dan-O from Five-O]

wouldn't you get a better sound by pointing the mic AT the soundhole, but moving it back? i don't think you want to control volume by going off-axis, unless you're CRRRRRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZZZYYYY. but you want to keep the mic far enough back to avoid the cardioid whuff zone.

Blue, a quick Google found this complete with diagrams, not one pointing at the soundhole. Show me one diagram out there with the mic pointing at the soundhole please.

[blue]

i maybe misinterpreted what roy was saying. i thought he meant to put the mic directly in front of the soundhole, but pointed toward the bridge, which, since most of us use cardioid mics for most stuff, would result in the direct bridge sound and a lot of off-axis garbage blasting out the hole.

so in that case (the case where you just had to get a cardioid mic pointing directly at the sound hole), you'd get a better sound by moving the mic away from the TALENT.

those diagrams illustrate omni mics basically making a good sound because they are really nice mics and you're putting 2 of them on a guitar. where you put mics on an acoustic really comes down to who you're recording, how much they move, and what it sounds like while you're placing the mics.

i personally usually do the single card condenser aimed at the bridge. i squeak too much to do a fretboard recording.

[blue]

here are many pictures of mics pointed directly into a sound hole

http://www.acousticguitar.com/issues/ag ... eview.html

HAND!



this one is cheating - that looks like a stereo mic



^^^ aw man, pwned by javascript.

[Dan-O from Five-O]

1) You were the one talking about Neumann's and AKG 414's, not dynamic mic's.
2) Those are pickup's, not mic's, and they all sound like DIIIIIICCCKKK on a recording. Live, well they have they're applications.
3) Of the 6 mic's on that guitar, 1 or 2 could be construed as being pointed at the soundhole, it's hard to tell from the angle of the photo. Which means at least 4 of the mics are not pointed directly at the soundhole. Thanks for proving my point.

[blue]

1) You were the one talking about Neumann's and AKG 414's, not dynamic mic's.
2) Those are pickup's, not mic's, and they all sound like DIIIIIICCCKKK on a recording. Live, well they have they're applications.
3) Of the 6 mic's on that guitar, 1 or 2 could be construed as being pointed at the soundhole, it's hard to tell from the angle of the photo. Which means at least 4 of the mics are not pointed directly at the soundhole. Thanks for proving my point.

cardioid -vs- omni, not dynamic -vs- condenser. at least one of those pickups is a mic. it only takes one exception to prove an absolute statement incorrect.

JOO R PWNZED. ADMIT IT.

[deshead]

definately buy the best mic you can afford.

Always buy the best gear you can afford.

C'mon guys, is that really the best advice for someone who said "I've got no experience whatsoever of anything to do with music recording?"

Neonpaul, you could spend $1500 on a U87, and blue's right: it'll sound better than a B1 no matter what your board and room look like... But seriously dude, don't. Until you have some skillz, avoid the G.A.S.

Buy a couple of SM57's. Learn how to use them. Decide if you even like recording. Then you'll have a better idea what you really need to buy. (And trust me: If you're a neophyte, an expensive condenser microphone is WAY down on the list of things you need. Spend some time on The Homerecording BBS, and specifically some of the getting started threads. You'll get a better sense of where someone in your position should be spending money, and probably even a direct answer to your original question.)

[jack]

i agree with most of what des says, but i say you're better off spending the extra $15 and getting a B1 (large diaphragm condenser) over the SM57 (dynamic), if of course you have a phantom power source and are looking for a recording mic and not an all purpose recording and gigging mic.

not to disparage the SM57, arguably the most resourceful mic ever made, and something any decent home studio will have at least one of.

[blue]

well yeah.. buy a 57.

[neonpaul]

Thanks guys, this has helped more than I might've thought it would...


I'll have a think about what you said and do a bit of browsing.