Them Dukes, them Dukes... (Moon Shine Reviews)

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:48 am

the Wilson Heights Gang: This guytar feel needs to pick itself up soon. It's not doing it quickly enough to my taste. Then the electric guitar hits, and it's so dark and muffled that it really shouldn't have come at all. Oy.

Poor June: The piano sounds like a toy, which does have a certain type of appeal. But that appeal does not match your muffled Counting-Crows vocals, especially not with those echoes out of nowhere.

Max the Cat: ...does WreckdoM! But I'm not terribly convinced. I think your'e wasting too much decent music by mixing it in with good story-telling. The two don't neccessarily go well together. In essence, my complaint is that the music makes it sounds like you're a little too into it, like you actually don't view the storyline as a little bit jokey.

Hoblit: I love the beginning style. I'm not sure you should've made that drastic style change--it was too abrupt. You do the rock quite well, and you also do the happy polka rock quite well, but I don't think the rock and the happy polka rock should be so close together. They don't complement each well at all.

Caravan Ray: Very pretty song, but it gets a little tedious towards the end. The singing is good but could still use work--big voice drops stand out badly. Those four statements were stated in order of importance to my enjoyance, meaning I like it.

Baker: The beginning is smooth, but the singing is an instant killer. Sing to a crowd, not to your inner head!

Astrolamb: I like your vocal delivery but think that it's suited better for more avant-garde sorta rock music. This song is too generic and repetitive to let the voice flourish in all of its weirdness, and in fact the voice rubs this music the wrong way. This song needed a better songwriter or a different singer.

Dave Stiles: Your talent lies more in the special effects, less in the songwriting. You should either begin to apply your excellent production to higher standards of that particular vein of songwriting, or apply it to a different kind of songwriting altogether.

Joshua Fenn: Not funny. I can't stand the "obviously terrible in a funny way" juxtaposed over "decent and sorta sincere-sounding music."

the Midiots: This is an intriguing little musical journey. Normally, this sort of instrumentation would be not so great, but here, I feel like I'm being paraded around by a crazy awesome village of little compterized band members, who trumpet around and show me all the aspects of their silly little toy village. So I like this.

Southwest Static: This a different breed of songwriting, here--the poppier, "could do without but ain't bad either" sorta song. The same part of me that enjoys Maroon 5 insists that this is a pretty cool production of a song.

The White Hat: This just doesn't click with me. Too guytarish, I guess, though I'm not wild about the tune either. I do really appreciate the instrumentation, though--you could do wonders with it.

Pookah: Instant dullitude. Droning... Heavy droning...

The Likely Lads: Great stab for the rock, but your instruments and voice sound really fake, and not in a cool way. The drums are particularly fake and weak sounding, and secondly so is the singing. But I like the attitude.

Henrietta and the Hoodlums: Though I'm easily distracted by your wonderfully showcased voice, the song itself is actually pretty boring. Imagine how boring it would sound if you weren't such a good singer. Since you have the performance/production part down so well, you oughta really work on writing more complex stuff.

Caravan Ray takes the cake, though the Midiots manage to grab a substantial chunk of it as Mr. Ray bolts for the door, cake in arms. Some icing flies off, and it lands, surprisingly, on Southwest Static.

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:04 am

CHANGE OF HEART A SHORT TIME THEREAFTER!!:

Actually, the Midiots' song, while a little sleepy towards the end, is more entertaining than Caravan Ray's considerably more repetitive and less thought out (musically, not lyrically) tune.

Also, I just read the explanation behind Southwest Static's song, and that makes the song humongously better as a social statement. Such a good one that I almost considered voting for it. But then I figured, well, this is SongFight!, not SocialStatementFight!, so I'll stick to the Midiots. But I salute you, Sir Southwest Static, for your impressive production.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:03 am

user wrote: Hoblit: I love the beginning style. I'm not sure you should've made that drastic style change--it was too abrupt. You do the rock quite well, and you also do the happy polka rock quite well, but I don't think the rock and the happy polka rock should be so close together. They don't complement each well at all.

Polka? Is that what they are calling rockabilly ska these days?

Hey thanks for your listen though I do appreciate it. This isn't really that much of a departure for me though. It's a little out there but not all that far from some of my songs in the past. I made the drastic changes on purpose for that particular clash. Hard southern rawk jumping into hillbilly ska... I personally liked the contrast. I can see where you don't and I respect that

Again, I do appreciate you taking the time to review my song!

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:33 am

Thanks for the reviews!

My songwriting goal right now is to build up enough of a set to start playing in coffee shops. Big surprize, right? Anyways, that's why we turn in so many vocal+guitar entries. Every song song I write we need to be able to play live & acoustic.

Which leads me to this question: Imagine I sat down and played you one of my songs. There's no production or multitracking- just flat out live acoustic. What's the #1 key element would you guys think I/we should improve on? ie. lyrics, melodies, chord progressions, structure, incorporating more percussive rhythms, etc?

I really appreciate these insightful comments! Yay Songfight.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:40 am

Henrietta wrote:Thanks for the reviews!

My songwriting goal right now is to build up enough of a set to start playing in coffee shops. Big surprize, right? Anyways, that's why we turn in so many vocal+guitar entries. Every song song I write we need to be able to play live & acoustic.

Which leads me to this question: Imagine I sat down and played you one of my songs. There's no production or multitracking- just flat out live acoustic. What's the #1 key element would you guys think I/we should improve on? ie. lyrics, melodies, chord progressions, structure, incorporating more percussive rhythms, etc?

I really appreciate these insightful comments! Yay Songfight.

Truthfully, I ALWAYS hear your stuff as if it were a live performance... I'd have to see you live to answer the question, because frankly I'm suprised you aren't already playing your stuff in coffee shops and the like!! This seems to be your niche as it were... I guess to answer your question... maybe a little more "edgy" vibe to some stuff... however, that to me comes from conviction in your performance, rather than material, though others may differ... I was serious, I think your perfect for some high brow, high paying gigs for dinner parties, etc... when I was growing up, my parents (ones' a doctor, the other a university prof) would hire musicians to play dinner parties... those people made some good dough, had a very receptive audience, and ate well to boot!!

just my thoughts....

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:46 am

Henrietta wrote:What's the #1 key element would you guys think I/we should improve on?

Improve? You need to Improve?

 The only thing I would do differently is give some of the songs a little more action... vary the melodies a bit. However, you are excellent and this is only 'since your asking'. Otherwise, don't change a thing.

Post by jb » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:57 am

Henrietta wrote:Thanks for the reviews!

My songwriting goal right now is to build up enough of a set to start playing in coffee shops. Big surprize, right? Anyways, that's why we turn in so many vocal+guitar entries. Every song song I write we need to be able to play live & acoustic.

Which leads me to this question: Imagine I sat down and played you one of my songs. There's no production or multitracking- just flat out live acoustic. What's the #1 key element would you guys think I/we should improve on? ie. lyrics, melodies, chord progressions, structure, incorporating more percussive rhythms, etc?

I really appreciate these insightful comments! Yay Songfight.

Choruses. Your songs need catchy choruses. You have a lot to say in your verses, which always makes me look for some great hooky chorus to make me want to listen again and possibly sing along. Choruses get people involved with your song. If you're in a coffee shop-type of environment especially, you need to break into the concentration of someone reading a newspaper or chatting with a friend. If you have a lot of AABA songs, it's going to sound like a lot of rambling, to a person who isn't really concentrating on the song. Once you've got some fans, then you can reel out the Joni Mitchell-style rambling pieces and have people actually listen to them.

This is all just IMO of course. And I haven't gone back to listen to anything, so it could be that I'm just not remembering your choruses which are in every song. :-/

I wouldn't mind some added polish on your lyrics too; sometimes it seems like you got tired of trying to come up with a good line and went with something that just sort of fit in place rather than some really compelling or interesting words. Or maybe too many words where just a few really-well-chosen words would do better, given time to find their way into your head. But people get really uptight when you criticize their lyrics, so just consider that a taste thing on my part.

jack · Post by **jack** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:19 am

i agree with leaf in that i already assumed that you guys were playing gigs at coffee shops and the like. you have great great execution in your voice, good pitch and you never push it or overdo it. and as i've already publicly proclaimed, the hoodlum hostage guy is DA MAN. JB made some good points about choruses. you just need to be able to deliver some sort of hook, either dynamically or through the arrangement to keep people's interest, or get it to begin with. i'd have to say the number one way of getting that attention is by establishing early a connection with the crowd, not taking more than 10-15 secs between songs, and put together a setlist with alot of variety if possible. but you guys write pretty solid material, and execute it really well, so it's really only about the music registering, not if it's good enough.

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:10 am

Henrietta wrote:What's the #1 key element would you guys think I/we should improve on? ie. lyrics, melodies, chord progressions, structure, incorporating more percussive rhythms, etc?

My 2 cents. Percussion can be a nice touch when used properly and played in correct time. I've been surprised at how much I can struggle keeping a solid rhythm with a tamborine while trying to sing, or how my vocals can suffer while focusing on time. So practice, practice practice.

Also if you can, record your rehearsals and live performances. Then compare those recordings to your studio recordings and discuss it with your bandmate(s) and figure out if your songs are coming out as you had hoped. As with anything in music, experiment. Figure out what works and what doesn't and delete that parts that don't work.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:26 am

jack shite wrote:not taking more than 10-15 secs per song

those are some pretty short songs.
do you mean "talking" ?
-bill

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:19 pm

REVIEWING

AstroLamb: I'm glad to hear your recordings getting slightly better. I'm glad too. I like your sound (even if it's a little Pear Jammish) and think you'll be even more of a contendor in the future. I like the erie sound you produce in this song. A lot of good songs in my opinion are ones that make me 'feel' a certain way or have a 'mood' no matter what that mood may be. Atmostphere goes a long way with me and you seem to produce good atmosphere whenever you enter. I like the effects on the guitar and I like your haunting voice coming through the simple dark room guitar song. Keep up the good work and keep reading the help threads to better improve your recordings. Especially the vocal recording tips. Your vocals are still a little bit muddy. The drum tracks of your past songs can use a little improvement too...but I'll wait and complain about that next week

Baker: The music is pretty. Like I was just saying, I'm a sucker for atmosphere. I'm not crazy about the vocals and lyrics. I think you should go back and re sing this song. I know it's hard to get it right in under so much time. The stereo effects are a nice touch.

Caravan: Nice HISS! I love the HISS! The hiss is a great touch to an otherwise drab song. OK, I KID. It's unfortunate that there is so much hiss, however I'm not gonna spend this whole review ..reviewing the hiss. The hiss isn't that important. Anways, enough about hte hiss. This song is really pretty. I like the bass line. It makes me feel relaxed. This song is not intrusive and very relaxing. Outside of the 'clear blue skies' cliche' (which is no big deal because I love George Strait's 'out of the blue clear sky') the lyrics are touching. Makes me think of a small get together in the back yard of a suburan house as the sun is going down on a nice day. Imagery is up there with Atmosphere with me

Davestile: Nice work do0d. This has some of Baker crossed with Astrolamb entry in it. After I get over the Sprint PCS sounding guitar lick, I really like that dark sound mixed with the electronic chewy stuff. Most of all, I really dig the doubled ocative vocal tracks. Sounds super sweet man. I think Henrietta is going to get my vocal...but your song has been up there with SouthwestS in the running ... The chorus is sweet and catchy.

Henrietta: Your song is sweet. It's darn near perfect. I really like the guitar work as finger picking goes. It has a nice little progression and the two voices singing over each other is a great touch. The lyrics are sweet and simple. This reminds me of a cross between a good folk song and a good country song. Your vocals sell this song. This one gets my vote. You'd think that I'd have more to say about it...but it's a simple song and it gets a simple review. Great job.

Hoblit: Hey, I like it.

JoshuaF: No sir, didn't like it. (mainly based on the vocals) The guitar and harmonica performance could be better..but as is... it's not all that great. I kinda like the sound of the two though.

LikelyL: I can see for miles and miles...wait...no... but wait...yes..this is still the Who..wait..no ...it's not.... THIS song is fun. I like the 'I don't drink anything but moonshine' parts. VERY CATCHY. This has an early Who feel if I didn't mention it already. You have a very classic rock vocal track going on. I liked this..keep up the good work.

Maxcat: Interesting. It doesn't leap out at me as one of the better songs. However, I do find it creative. Also.... I find the 'don't walk on the water/born again humor' is quite cute. Interesting...but not really doing it for me.

Midiot: Interesting. It doesn't leap out at me as one of the better songs. However, I do find it creative. This one leaves me a little bored though. I think as a journey it could be good...but it needs something to keep me a bit more interested. There are nice instumentations and some good execution. Just needs better glue I guess.

POOH: Elliot Smith? I thought you were dead. This has the same appeal as your old stuff. It's personal and intimate. The doubled vocals make it that more appealing. I feel like we are about to kiss...then I realize it's only a song. Nice and sweet. Good work. Wait, you're not really E. Smith? Well then, keep it up mah man.

PJ: This reminds me of a 70's classic rock epic. I'm waiting for Meatloaf to belt out something or maybe billy joel to wail. Elton John is about to sing falsetto. Go back and redo the vocals. This could be very nice with a better vocal track. I like the delayed vocals and overall sound. I expect FBF will do this song if he ever got you in a coverfight.

SWS: RIGHT ON. I don't care about the piano sound. Depeche mode never got criticized for that. Your song is smart, alert, and a nice blend of pop music and innovative electronic music. It's not over the top...but it's close. This is how Justine Timberlake SHOULD sound. This was a runner up for me. I almost voted for it..but Henrietta beat you out ... barely.

WHITE: Another pretty acoustic piece. I like the finger picking. I might have to pick up my acoustic again some day. That much you have inspired. (well, along with the other acoustic songs this week) This could be taken a lot higher if the vocal melody had more variation. It sort swerves everywhere the guitar goes and I think it could do that AND vary from it a bit more for a contrast effect. The accordian sounding instrument is a nice touch but maybe a hair overpowering. Good song.

Wilson: This is a decent song..but obvious problems with performance and even bigger issues with production. Clips and distorts at parts where it shouldn't. I think with practice you'll get these problems fixed and your entries in the future will better for this learning experience. I like some of the lyrics and I do like the IDEA of the electric guitar crunch there but again it's lost in production and performance. Decent idea for a song here though.

Good fight ya'll

TheWilsonHeightsGang · Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:37 pm

Judging by everybody's comments, my production is way off. I guess the speakers or headphones I'm using just aren't that good because I don't hear any of the clipping...or maybe they're too good and eliminate all clipping. Either way, I need to figure that out. next time, i'll try laying off the mic a little bit while singing. As far as the tuning of the guitar goes, I check the tuning regularly during recording. I record using a tascam us-122 which has a built in tuner. It's really picky, so when it tells me I'm on, I take its word for it...and it sounds really good. I really need to figure out what's going on to try to make it better.

If anybody can suggest somethings that I can do with limited time and money, please let me know. I have a CAD microphone, an acoustic/electric guitar (Ovation), electric guitar (fender mustang), a voice, 2 full time jobs, full time college, the afformentioned tascam unit, cool edit.

I'm all ears. Feel free to private message me or something.

Love,
Jon (the WHG)

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:26 pm

I'm so glad I asked this question! Thanks for all the good insights. Before I found SF, I thought it was my vocal delivery that really needed the most work. In reality, it turned out to be the songwriting!

Self-perception is such a funny thing.... Anyhow, I'm really excited about maybe playing out, and I'd like to have a really strong set down before I get serious about it.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:59 pm

Henrietta wrote:Thanks for the reviews!

Which leads me to this question: Imagine I sat down and played you one of my songs. There's no production or multitracking- just flat out live acoustic. What's the #1 key element would you guys think I/we should improve on? ie. lyrics, melodies, chord progressions, structure, incorporating more percussive rhythms, etc?

I really appreciate these insightful comments! Yay Songfight.

Another two-bobs worth:

For the #1 key element to improve on, I agree with JB and say go for some hooky choruses. It doesn't have to be in every song - just throw some in every now and again - the hooks are what gets the punters tapping their feet, humming along and stopping their conversations long enough to turn around and say "Hey look, someones on stage - and they sound pretty good..."

2nd tip is don't be a corpse on stage. Too many good musos loose their audiences attention by staring down at their guitars or reading sheet music etc (never ever ever take a music stand on stage - learn your songs by heart). It often doesn't matter how good your songs are - the audience want something to look at. I don't mean you have to move like Mick Jagger - just maintain eye contact with the audience occaisionally, that's usually all it takes. And smile. If you're enjoying yourself - let it show.

Good luck - you have a great voice, make the most of it.

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:05 pm

Yeah Henrietta, your singing is great. Like Hoblit said, you oughta vary the melodies a bit more, and I'll add that even the chord progressions could stand some extra complication and/or less repetition.

One song I wouldn't change a thing on is your "Blueberry Hassle".

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:12 pm

TheWilsonHeightsGang wrote:Judging by everybody's comments, .....

Love,
Jon (the WHG)

Still can't hear your song - seems to download OK, but when I try to play it I get an error message saying "Windows Media Player cannot find the specified file..."

Anyone know what this means? Is it a problem my end or a problem at Wilson Heights? (first time I've ever seen it - all the other songs work)

TheWilsonHeightsGang · Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:42 pm

okay. if you can't hear my song, send me a private message and I'll email you the file. maybe that'll work

jon
WHG

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:05 pm

Caravan Ray wrote:
TheWilsonHeightsGang wrote:Judging by everybody's comments, .....

Love,
Jon (the WHG)
Still can't hear your song - seems to download OK, but when I try to play it I get an error message saying "Windows Media Player cannot find the specified file..."

Anyone know what this means? Is it a problem my end or a problem at Wilson Heights? (first time I've ever seen it - all the other songs work)

WHG, in mixdown, are you listening to your mix from it's recorded SOURCE or it's mixdown DESTINATION? If you're pushing your destination master too hard and not listening to it (instead listening to your source), you'll never hear the distortion from overloading your destinstion master. For instance, I record to a multi-track and mixdown to a cd burner and then have someone convert my cd recording to an MP3. (My home computer is to archeic and my work provided laptop won't allow me to load a program to do the ripping for me. This is the reason my songs have been late and don't get entered) When I mixdown, my headphones and monitors are plugged into the cd burner, NOT the multi-track. From there, I'll listen to my cd on various sources, my home stereo, a boom box, my car and so on. After those listens, I will re-mix until I get a good overall sound. That's what finally gets ripped to MP3. Since I don't do that process myself, I can't tell you if there may be an issue there.

As far as the tuner goes, get yourself a Korg chromatic tuner, you can get them for less than $20. Nice tuners and more reliable than what you are using. Think of it this way, what sounds better, a component stereo system or a boom box? Would you rather have several kick ass components or one do it all contraption? Also, re-tune the guitar before EVERY track. I don't care how good the guitar stays in tune, just check it again. There's nothing more frustrating than getting a difficult part finished only to listen to it later and discover you were a little out of tune with a previous part.

Mostly, remember I'm a critical, opinionated bastard. My opinion means exactly zip sometimes. It will be one of many you'll read here. Just keep in mind when you read my opinions and reviews, half of it BS, half of it is my TRYING to be witty, and half of it is my opinion alone. Wait, that's 3 halves, screw it I'll do the math later. The point is 2 fold, you'll probably end up having more people who disagree with me more than agreeing and I'm only harsh in reviews because I want you to try harder and give me better music to listen to.

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:08 pm

Caravan Ray wrote:
TheWilsonHeightsGang wrote:Judging by everybody's comments, .....

Love,
Jon (the WHG)
Still can't hear your song - seems to download OK, but when I try to play it I get an error message saying "Windows Media Player cannot find the specified file..."

Anyone know what this means? Is it a problem my end or a problem at Wilson Heights? (first time I've ever seen it - all the other songs work)

Try downloading and listening on Real One.

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:45 am

his file streams fine on a MACINTOSH

Gazelles · Post by **Gazelles** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:12 pm

I used a Macintosh to listen to it Jack. Still didn't work.

TheWilsonHeightsGang · Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:30 am

when I listen to my mix, I have the headphones coming from the computer (instead of having speakers in). I don't plug them into the tascam unit.

Also, I really don't understand why my file wouldn't be working for you guys. I saved my first two songs the same way and nobody had problems with those. I've been asking my friends to listen to it off songfight and it seems fine working with their stuff, so this is just plain ol' weird. Try using quicktime to listen as well as Real One player or something like that...iTunes, winamp...?

the WHG

Them Dukes, them Dukes... (Moon Shine Reviews)

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mixing