Some General Thoughts About Sidefights

king_arthur · Post by **king_arthur** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:47 am

Yeah, I know. Nonetheless, that is one of the reasons why I am less inclined to participate in a sidefight than in the regular fights.

One other thought, which I was reminded of by the return of Secret Santa - one of the reasons I prefer doing hxaros and lovefests over doing coverfights is that we generally DON'T review and critique hxaros and lovefests. Yeah, I know, side "fights" and cover "fights." Still, when I'm covering somebody else's song, I like being able to just do it and have the original artist say "thank you" and not be called out on my drum programming, vocals, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority on that, but it's one more thing that makes me less inclined to participate in side / cover fights.

Charles (KA)

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:33 pm

king_arthur wrote:I would possibly / probably be interested in a fight covering other songfight artists' songs. I skipped the last coverfight because I thought the setup (the lists) was more work than the payoff (one cover) was worth to me

I thought that last one Ken organised was great. You are right - setting up the lists was a bit of work - but the payoff was that when everyone posted their lists, you ended up with a big hand-picked list of cool songs you had most likely not heard before. It was clear that a lot of people had put thought into selecting songs for me to do - ie. songs they thought that I might like - and the result was a great CD made from the songs others selected for me. It is also my "to do" list for future covers (so far I have played 2 of those songs live - I hope to record covers one day...).

As for Sidefights - I can take them or leave them - it is no issue really. I expect the actual outcome to always be about 2% of the initial interest. It's par for the course.

I like to do covers - just as a break from writing. It's a chance to try to improve my production without having to worry about the song itself. And generally - I'd prefer to to a cover of someone who I can send the song to later and get feedback. So far, Abba and The Eagles have not answered my emails. I don't supect Thomas Dolby ever will either.

Egg · Post by **Egg** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:13 pm

SongFight! is awesome in a lot of ways. One thing that is awesome is that I can just drop in and there is this trove of very varied music to plow through. The more entries per week, the more songs to hear.

I revel in the adulation and rejection of various songfight efforts whenever I find the time to come to the site. Sometimes, I catch up. I've listened to all the songs that week and the week before and I've actually heard the whole archive as it stands. Then I look at the sidefights and there's even more. Yikes. So much music. It feels like pure musical exploration.

From my point of view, a weak sidefight still gets some people to do something. And, in the most specific sense possible, getting somebody to do something is what things are all about. I don't think "The glass is 95% empty." I think, "THAT HOTTIE LEFT A SIP OF RUM AND COKE ON THE TABLE! YOINK."

I suppose the argument can be made that the plethora of bad fights reduces drive and morale and, in the longterm, reduces the overall good output of sidefights. But I think the sidefights and highlights still put out a lot of good music each year that wouldn't be there without the sidefights and highlights.

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:42 am

OK, so in t'other thread, I whined at Niveous when he said he'd start another Nur Ein soon, saying that I thought he ought to give the sidefights a bit of a rest and let someone else have a shot at one instead*.

In response, Niveous wrote:Thanks Obscurity for the constructive criticism.

Some quick things in reply-
1- People have been asking me when the next Nur Ein is. So, that's not me running amok. I'm more than happy to sit back on the Nur Ein for a while.

2- Who's stopping other people from starting Sidefights. Not me.

3- You act like I run a lot of sidefights. I do GoM for the holidays and I did the Nur Ein a year ago.

If you wanna run a sidefight, go ahead. I'm not stopping you.

which (ignoring the sarcasm) is a pretty reasonable response, and one that's difficult to logically argue against.

Except....you (not you alone; you and others) are stopping me. I'm sure it's not an intended consequence of your actions, but it is one nonetheless.

See, I'm one of the people (and I'm sure I'm not alone) that thinks that having sidefights going on all the time is a bad thing, and that it would be better if they were an occasional treat. I'd much rather have a couple of sidefights a year that most folks participated in than a couple of sidefights a week that nobody participated in. So, even though I would like to do a sidefight myself, I'm not going to make the existing situation worse (from my perspective) by starting one as soon as another finished, I"d rather wait a while. But of course I can't, 'cos someone else inevitably jumps in and starts one off anyway.

Also, I'm one of the people who thinks queueing is a polite and constructive way of dealing with issues like this, which is why I registered my interest in this thread. So I'm not going to jump the queue and start a sidefight without letting the folks who got there ahead of me have their turn. I feel like I'm sitting back here being polite and waiting my turn, and people keep jumping the queue. I find that pretty exasperating.

And it's all very well saying "I only do GoM and Nur Ein", but Niveous, there are 724 people registered on this board. If everyone did 2 sidefights a year, there would be 1448 sidefights every year, or around 4 every day. That's clearly not practical. So what makes you so special that you get 2 of your own (and lets face it, they're neither of them what you'd call small sidefights)?

So, I re-iterate: Please, give it a rest. And after it's had a rest, let the folks who've been patiently waiting their turn have a shot. I think Jack has first dibs with his double-Elvis fight.

(*I feel like that bit ought to be narrated, prefixed with "Previously on songfight...")

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:55 am

sounds like a sidefight is needed to determine who should run a sidefight...

You know what? I don't fucking care. If a sidefight looks interesting and I have the time and the inspiration, I'm in. That's it. I bet that's true for more people than not... so Obscurity, BUDGE IN. Set one up... trying to develop a verbal contract on a message board so you can have a turn is just a waste of energy... if you got a good idea, bust it out. IF people like it, it will go. If they like it but are busy, it wont' go at first...

Really, trying to bully an agreement for a "que" is no different that someone doing it when they want. You're arguing for control over something that you, by it's very nature, can not control... and seem resentful that Niv's energy to make these things happen has pulled from your opportunity...

thing is, songfight has two words in the description of it's purpose; "song" and "fight". In typical human fashion, different people debate the meanings of either word to suit there personal perspective for how they would like to control the environment. Fact of the matter is though, it's an aggressive environment, due to the competitive nature. Why water that down with verbal contracts and codes and rules and all that??? The sidefight part is a "side" to songfight...but as it's a part of the forum for songfight, it's only natural to assume that the rules should be at the least, similar.

My point is: Do it or don't, but dont' complain about other's efforts and energy. GOM and Nur Ein rule as sidefights. I'm not sure (someone correct me please if this is erroneous) if there is one other person outside of the "admin" who has done more selfless things to enhance the site in a manner that includes such a broad spectrum of the boards than Niv. Maybe I"m wrong, but then he's easily in the top five. Reviews, best of lists, sidefights... who knows what else.

Telling him to stop would be like telling Spud and JB to back off on a title for a month to give Tuneflow a chance to soak up more people interested in competiting cause "they've been hogging the opportunities".

SEIZE THE DAY. Start a sidefight when you have the idea and insipration and time to make it happen. JUST DON'T pick some lame ass band to have a cover fight for... B O R I N G.

I think I'm almost awake enough to start working now...

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:59 am

Leaf wrote: Really, trying to bully an agreement for a "que" is no different that someone doing it when they want.

OK, the absolute last thing I'm trying to do here is bully anyone into anything. It seems my legendary inability to communicate clearly strikes again. Before I get dogpiled again, I'm just gonna say: OK, sorry, I take it all back, forget I spoke, I'm out of here.

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:55 pm

I started typing up a response but then the board became inaccessible to me. So here is a response to the thread.

--

I've done a couple sidefights: a mostly invitation-only Sound of Music cover project (accessible <a href="http://glitterandtwang.org/songs/som.html">here</a>, and recommended!), and a theme-song fight. These were both a few years ago, now. I agree with obscurity that the number of sidefights seems to have grown unmanageable, and there's now several sidefight proposals whose due dates come and go without a blink. They have their own board now, I mean... they aren't anything special, and I think that's regrettable. I think it discourages participation, and I think that a sidefight should be a rare flower, blooming but a scant few times a year. Or at least no more frequently than once an f-in' month, man.

I should maybe like to see a stickied thread: sidefight proposals. A companion thread could come by once a month, say: sidefight voting. Proposals could include where the shit will be hosted for forevs, and a due date.

The drawback here is that, like working with unions, it only helps if everyone would agree to not do their own sidefights outside of this system. Else it's no better than what's happening right now.

I think, though, that I could make a distinction between "sidefights" and "projects": the former has a specific kind of open-ended challenge, and the latter is like fluffy's own Project, and my Sound of Music cover project, and hxaro, and so forth. But this may all be unclear and only muddying the waters unnecessarily.

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:59 pm

I really dig the sidefights. Haven't had time to either side or regular fight in awhile, but that doesn't mean I'm not listening. Or wishing I had more time!!! Speaking of time, how could it not be awesome to take your time on stuff?

Leaf's stated credo of "If it interests me and I have time, I'm in..." pretty much sums it up for me.

Obsucrity, do it man! There's very little that's polite around here, so just throw your idea down and roll with it.

If it's only you that's in it, not enough people passed Leaf's litmus test...which is to say, nothing personal...try another one! Waiting for your turn seems like it could become an excuse rather than a reason..... step UP!

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:15 pm

obscurity wrote:
Leaf wrote: Really, trying to bully an agreement for a "que" is no different that someone doing it when they want.
OK, the absolute last thing I'm trying to do here is bully anyone into anything. It seems my legendary inability to communicate clearly strikes again. Before I get dogpiled again, I'm just gonna say: OK, sorry, I take it all back, forget I spoke, I'm out of here.

...I wondered if you'd take it that way! Clearly I'm getting a feel for ya, cause you did. Don't worry man, you're not coming across in a "bully" fashion... more to the point, I'm suggesting that you're actually being too sensitive to that by holding back, and that the tactic of trying to verbally contract an etiquette is no different than just laying out your idea... either way, feathers will be ruffled...but if you just go for it, at least YOUR idea is out there.

See... you're legendary communication issue is so legendary it's beating itself at it's own game.

Ok. I'm clearly ready to start writing letters to the government now...

Niveous · Post by **Niveous** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:12 pm

Leaf, thanks for the kind words. I love this community. It's done worlds for my music so I like giving back.

Maybe we need a small break from sidefights. Just to refresh the batteries. We have had a lot of sidefights recently and the participation has been scattered. Maybe a breather will help.

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:35 pm

I do hope that doesn't mean we won't be Eining this year... because I've got big money plans.

jack · Post by **jack** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:42 pm

obscurity wrote: I think Jack has first dibs with his double-Elvis fight.

hey, thanks obs! i'd forgotten about that one, but i still think it would be a good side fight!

j$ · Post by j$ » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:41 am

Brock ... Samson .... *sigh he so dream-may!*

furrypedro · Post by **furrypedro** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:23 am

Leaf wrote:JUST DON'T pick some lame ass band to have a cover fight for... B O R I N G.

Yeah, like Metallica yaaaaaawwwwn

I like the way it's working now, I figure if people get bored with all the sidefights then the number of them would just drop off naturally. I would be disappointed if we were limited to say 4 sidefights a year and I didn't like the sound of any of them; take last year, there was the Yacht Rock fight and the Eagles fight AND the Manilow fight, and they're all a bit before my time (read ball-less and soul-less), but then blue butted in with a Minutemen fight and I was diggin that. So none of them were legendary perhaps but hopefully most of us with sidefight fever were satiated for the moment. The great thing about Nur Ein and GoM is they're universal and a bit different, personally I can't wait for Nur Ein 2, I just hope I've got the grapes for it.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:37 pm

Furrypedro wrote:I like the way it's working now, I figure if people get bored with all the sidefights then the number of them would just drop off naturally.

It's like lemmings...sort of. They multiply to the point where one day, a lemming will post a message on the internet and say "Hey, there are too many lemmings..."

Mostess · Post by **Mostess** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:59 pm

Given that the whole point of the "Get A Life" fight was JoS' (a veteran sidefighter, to say the least) compaint about the Songfight gap, I'd say the little sidefights are dying in this dusty corner of the board.

I sometimes get inspired when I see sidefight ideas. But I almost never go looking for them. They've been stashed away here in this "Sidefights and Highlights" board category.

Not that I need any more to do these days, I'm just sayin'.

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:31 pm

The only important and most neglected sidefight is original recipe. It's where everyone puts something in and gets something out. It's an even exchange and there's added pressure to not let anyone down by a) not coming through when you say you will and b) doing a terrible job on a song written by someone who KNOWS WHERE YOU LIVE (i.e. the SongFight message boards). Is there really much point to hearing Glenn Case cover a Hall & Oates song? Well, maybe if you really like Glenn Case. But what does it have to do with SongFight? (Oh yeah, the voting, which everyone claims to not care about AT ALL!) Need proof of the awesomeness of the "original recipe"? Here it is:

• Hostess Mostess covering 15-16 Puzzle's "Don't Fix It" (BROKEN LINK - WHAT'S UP BRENT?!)
• Brick Pig covering Gil Sans "I Love You"
• Me covering Jon Eric's "Violet Want it Her Way"
(yes, I know it's lame to list myself, but it's a really good cover!)

There are many others, I'm sure, but I have other things to do, so I offer only these three. LONG LIVE ORIGINAL RECIPE!

ken · Post by **ken** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:58 pm

Hi Frankie,

There have been a number of even-steven fights recently that veteran songfighters have not completed. Erik seems to be one of the biggest offenders right now.

Ken

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:10 pm

According to the archive, we haven't had "original recipe" since September 2004 and in that one, the tyrannical JB told everyone what to play! The last regular cover fight where names were drawn out of a hat was September 2003, over three years ago!!

So, what were these even-steven fights you speak of? Do they actually involve cover each others SongFight songs? If they don't, then they don't contradict my point.

Post by **Lunkhead** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:28 pm

Not to speak for Ken, but he recently ran a cover fight that involved covering each other's songs. Everyone who participated was supposed to do one cover and receive one cover. Everyone being covered was someone who's involved on the boards. It seems to match up with your original points pretty well, even though Ken chose the final who-covered-who list.

http://www.songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2979

There were lots of good covers (including my cover of Theopilus Monk's "Stairway to the Moon" which I am mentioning unapologetically in the name of shameless self-promotion

). (Actually, I did two covers of that song for Marcus...)

Some did not participate because they found the task of generating their choices for who would cover their songs to be a bit intimidating, but I think Ken's intent was to make it so that, even if people didn't get their their top choice cover, they got one of their choices.

This cover fight isn't in the archives yet. Which is a shame. Ken posted links to some of the songs here, though I think songs that were posted to the thread after this page went up didn't get added to the page:

http://kni.songhole.org/coverfight/coverfight.html

EDIT: Oops, here's the page for it on the "official" site, though this doesn't have all the links to covers that were eventually posted in the thread:

http://www.songfight.net/coverfight/cover.php

ken · Post by **ken** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:46 pm

Also, Gift of Music is a song for song exchange where people cover songs for each other.

I'm not contradicting your point about the last original recipe. There hasn't been one in a while, but I don't think it would have a better completion rate than any other sidefight.

Ken

Post by **Spud** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:35 pm

For the record, we have not yet completed our TOTAL REQUEST song. It is mostly recorded, but not yet mixed. It will be coming. We will not let this lie dormant forever. A long time, sure, but not forever. It should be noted that we have not recorded anything else in the meantime, however. Our TOTAL REQUEST entry is out top priority. We are just not really set up at the moment. I will see what I can do to get it out a.s.a.p., and post those puppies on the sidefights page as well.

SPUD