Compression/Double tracking questions.

[Project-D]

I've pulled out some of my hardware that was packed away and hooked it up, so I'm changing my process. What are the thoughts on using compression/limiting on a signal before it goes into the computer. The bulk of my experience is with reel to reel, (years ago) and of course you want as hot a signal w/out clipping. The problem is, with digital, when you hit the ceiling, it's horrible, you've got some room to play with tape. Should I back the input level down, and use the software compression, or should I apply limiting before it gets into the computer so I can get a hot signal like you would with tape? I've got an Alesis 3630, which isn't the best compresser, would it be better not to use it?

Question two, when double tracking voice is it most commonly panned hard left and right, left in the middle or somewhere inbetween? I know electric guitar is typically panned hard left and right, same with acoustic? I like to put different chord instruments a little on either side of center, piano a little left, guitar a little right, for example. Could you accomplish that with a doubletracked guitar?

[Billy's Little Trip]

Ken can be a huge help here because he not only has made the change, but he teaches classes on it.

I was a reel to reel recorder too up until about 6 months ago. I was using some of my rack units because I just couldn't imagine life without them. But now the only things I use that aren't a VST plug ins, are my tube drivers for warmth. It seems that is the only thing I miss in the digital world, although I do have VST tube plug ins that are ok, and I will probably find one I love soon.

I would never compress until the very end personally, but it seems like every time I think I know something, some guru comes along and changes my mind.
Limiting I can see as a good thing as a pre signal, but why not keep your input signal as true as possible? My FireBox analog to digi interface (the thing that my mics plug into that connects to my computer) has peak meters on it. I just turn the knoby thingies to stay under peak and all is good.

Of course you can come out to your rack units from your computer, through the units and back to the computer. But VST limiters and compressors are so good, why bother in my opinion....well, until a guru changes my mind.

[Adam!]

Totally depends on your audio interface, but as a VST fan I'd say no. If your soundcard can work at 24bit, and your pre-amps aren't too noisy, then you don't need to worry about getting your signal as hot as possible. Plus, hardware limiting is so irreversible and heavy-handed.

As for double tracking, I tend to pan double-tracked verse guitars 50%-75% left and right, and chorus guitars 90%-100% (I like the chorus to have a wider sound than the verse). Actually, I seldom HARD pan doubled guitars, as I find that I lose some cohesion between the two takes when I do that.

[Caravan Ray]

I don't like to pan double tracked vocals - I like to keep then together. I usually do 3 identical vocals, then group them together - then pan the whole bundle together in relation to the guitar - or other vocal parts

[Adam!]

when double tracking voice is it most commonly panned hard left and right, left in the middle or somewhere inbetween?

Whoops, didn't even see that. Yeah, what Caravan Ray said. Basically, if the doubled vocals are tight I'll pan 'em to the same place, but if they're sloppy I'll pan 'em a bit wider (25%-33%) until they sound OK. Doubled harmonies usually get panned pretty wide (50%-75%).

[Project-D]

This has all helped, I guess I need to shift my paradigm so to speak. I'm just used to thinkng, hot as possible. My first few songfight entries were without the pre-limiting, the last few I've used limiting, and I'm slowly moving over towards using Tracktion instead of Garageband. I'm using a Mackie mixer as a preamp, since my mic needs phantom power, and my input box doesn't provide it. Would it be worth getting a good mic-pre, or just using the mixer? What does everyone here use.

[fluffy]

I don't double-track. This is probably why my songs all sound so weak and feeble.

[Billy's Little Trip]

My Presonus Fire Box has a 48v mic boost button which works beautifully.

As far as vocals, I'm still working on my sound.
Lead vox = I like to sing twice and keep them centered. Or, copy the lead vox track, and do JB's trick where you move the copied track slightly to fatten the vox up.

Chorus vox = As mentioned above, I sing two backup vocal tracks and pan them around 30% to 50% left and right.

[Sober]

As far as lead vocals go, there's no hard fast rule. A perfectly dry, loud lead vocal works on a pop track, assuming you have an amazing voice. For a really punchy, full rock voice, double track it centered and put one of the tracks down by like -20db. For psych-y 70's vocals, mix them equal and pan them hard. It really is all about the feel.

As far as hardware compressing, if you've got a reasonably clean sounding interface, it's probably detrimental, because you're just adding another two or more connections to the signal path. Signal path, boys and girls, is important in low-level home recording!

/completely hammered post

[Mostess]

Doubled harmonies usually get panned pretty wide (50%-75%).

I second this. Seems like doubling and hard-panning anything makes it recede into the background a little, or become transparant like a ghost. It's a fake sound, but it adds that pop feel. I do it to almost all background vocals. Also acoustic guitar when you want the shimmer of strumming but don't want it to sound like an actual guitar. I bet doing it to the lead vocal would take attention off the lead singer. Maybe something to do if you've got a cool lead guitar line or something going on at the same time, but it seems like a specialty-item trick.

However, I say keep all your signal-processing habits the same while you're getting used to digital. Not because they're necessary or even preferable. Ultimately, you'll abandon them all and do all your signal processing after recording and/or during mixing. But hold off on that for 2 reasons, both psychological:

1) The sheer number of options available to you will drive you crazy. If you know how to get the sound you like from your guitar, just do it that way for a while. Otherwise you have a practically unlimited number of plug-ins that offer a nearly infinite number of settings and tweaks that can be chained in any order with any number of relative levels. Work out the basic issues of recording on digital (getting a clean signal with no clipping, prioritizing mixing vs. recording, deciding how much time to spend on levels and panning and bussing of various instruments, etc.) That stuff is dizzyingly complex already: you don't need to start worrying about the miniscule amount of noise generated by your analog compressor for a while.

2) You'll get a much better sense of the differences in sound between your analog and digital set ups if you keep everything consistent. Scientific method. If you change two things and the result isn't good enough, you won't know which to blame, or if it's purely an interaction.

I much prefer digital, but only because my analog days were severely amateur. I played with some high end (for 1988) stuff for a while, but mostly I was 4-tracking in my basement. I assume if you're used to reel to reel, you know what you're doing in analog land. So maybe your ears are good enough to help you build a great digital set up from scratch. Mine certainly were not.

[roymond]

As usual, the Hostess has the Mostess to say. Good stuff, that. Keep it familiar and then start playing around as you get comfortable.

Someone else said record 3 vocals and pan them together...that's my approach. Works like piano strings or violin sections in the orchestra in that each take is slightly off, but together they sound full. Best for the chorus or backing vocals.

On the other end of the spectrum is the Beatles' approach, pan them hard and sing completely accurately so that each take is virtually identical but ever so slightly different. None of us can do this so give up now. No, it's a different sound altogether and can produce a different effect.

I'd say the same applies to instruments. Chorused and full vs clarity. Doubled solos I like panned more than rich full strumming.