The Song Fight Bulletin Board

props...vox

propz. Sober Irishman's song is 6 minutes long! Dood whaddidya do to molest that track into the beast it's become? Dood I swear it's unacceptable. Someone should sic J$ on you.

But what about Takaha, that little slut? He is Jim Morrison in person, I can tell you that much, voice and such as well. I'm kinda bummed that I didn't get to hear the real Chief T on his track.

boltoph wrote:props...vox

you're mocking me, aren't you? ;-)

nyjm wrote:

boltoph wrote:props...vox

you're mocking me, aren't you?

I just like the sound of those words...and likewise, echo the props. No mockery!

Ryan Rickenbach wrote:It seems that when I produce on headphones it sounds great, but the jump to car or home sounds a lot worse. Is there an easy way to fix this?

What you experienced is common (if not universal.) Most headphones over-represent high and low frequencies, and exaggerate the stereo image. As a result, headphone mixes tend to be deficient in those areas (i.e. they sound mid-rangey and flat.)

There's no easy way to address it. Studios spend thousands on expensive near-field monitors for this reason. In fact, any professional will tell you simply: "Don't mix through headphones!"

If you don't have access to good quality speakers, or if you have to mix through headphones because of noise restrictions, then your only option is to check the mix on as many different systems as you can. Burn a CD or load a mix onto your MP3 player, and play it in the car, in the kitchen, in the shower. Make notes about which parts of the mix are buried or jump out, and tweak. Repeat until you get a mix that translates well through lots of different speakers.

It sounds tedious, but honestly, that's how it's done. Frankly, I have decent monitors and I still mix this way. I won't be happy with a mix until I've listened to it at least through HiFi speakers, computer speakers, my car stereo, and MP3 player ear buds.

Here are some threads with lots of opinion on the matter:
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=165034
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=165034



On preview: Boltoph, it's 11am on the east coast .. Are you drunk already?

deshead wrote:Boltoph, it's 11am on the east coast .. Are you drunk already?

eff, I wish.

deshead wrote:What you experienced is common (if not universal.) Most headphones over-represent high and low frequencies, and exaggerate the stereo image. As a result, headphone mixes tend to be deficient in those areas (i.e. they sound mid-rangey and flat.)

First try and find headphones that respond more like speakers in this regard. I find the Sony 7506 works ok. My Sennheiser and Grados seem to lack bass, so if I mix with them the bass booms elsewhere.

As for exagerated stereo image, you can't avoid that with headphones. And that's something I love about headphones, and miss whenever I'm listening over speakers. But on the other hand, hard panning in headphones is harder to tolerate than speakers.

Yeah, my sony 7506's seem to do OK when i have to use them for mixing... In fact, when I first got them I put them on and totally thought the sound was still coming through my monitors, then took them off and it wasn't.

Then again, I don't have the best ear.

woo-hoo, more audio geekery! i'm in...
i quite like the AKG240S, but mainly because they are the only cans i've found comfortable to wear for a long period of time. they have a very light feel. i have other cans that sound "better" (sonys, sennheiser 280s) but that's not really a plus - i like mixing a lot of stuff on lower end gear because if i can make it sound good on that it will sound supernatural on a B&W Nautilus system
Also, that helps to initially focus on the really important parts of the mix since the other stuff is harder to hear on a mediocre system. with good cans, you hear all the little details from the beginning, which is distracting. you find yourself eq'ing the hihat in the second bar of the outro, when you really should be fixing the shitty bassline throughout the song.
but for the final 20% of the mix, you've got to go to near fields. you can get great near fields pretty cheap these days - the key is to make the room sound good. this can be difficult and expensive. well, only expensive if you buy off the shelf treatments; if you go for diy you can get just as good results with cheap materials and some labour. bass traps, diffusers, you'd be astounded how much of a difference in your mixes this will make. there are lots of diy plans for this sort of stuff on the web, if you don't mind working with fiberglass

Here's what the Internet has to say: Don't mix through headphones.

They're good for critical listening. But you won't hear phase problems (a common issue on Songfight) or sub bass (that which is felt rather than heard,) and the proximity of the headphone drivers to your ear drum causes natural compression that hinders your ability to gauge transients.

A mix that sounds good in speakers will always sound at least as good in headphones. The reverse is almost never true.

[/sermonize]

I definitely prefer using monitors, but for many people $100 headphones are more attainable than $500 monitors, and then there's noise concerns for some because they have to finish their SF mix @ 3am Thursday morning

It's a "best" / "next best" scenario...

johnsonic wrote:there's noise concerns for some because they have to finish their SF mix @ 3am Thursday morning

Yup, that's me tonight, I can feel it coming on.
-bill

deshead wrote:Why headphones can't mow lawns

Yeah, I don't think any of us have a differing opinion. Using monitors is just not an option, unfortunately.

johnsonic wrote:I definitely prefer using monitors, but for many people $100 headphones are more attainable than $500 monitors

What about the speakers that came with your computer vs. headphones from Wal-Mart? I'm not poor, but with so many other things to spend money on in my life, my budget for music production is like $50 a year.

deshead wrote: They're good for critical listening. But you won't hear phase problems (a common issue on Songfight) or sub bass (that which is felt rather than heard,) and the proximity of the headphone drivers to your ear drum causes natural compression that hinders your ability to gauge transients.

it's very hard to gauge bass in general on headphones, even around the 150-300Hz range.
on the other hand, you can make the argument that if the mix is for songfight, you probably want to optimize the mix for headphones and pc, that's what 90% of the audience listens on i guess.

I agree with Humbert - I don't know if it's 90%, but I haven't mixed anything on speakers for over a year, and I rarely get mix complaints. I assume this is because the majority of listeners do so on headphones, as when I hear my finished songs on speakers, they can sound really listless and quiet. But then I don't intend any song I do to be released on CD.

j$

i also do all my mixing and mastering with headphones. ive never listened to much of anything ive recorded on speakers. i just dont own them for my comp and ive never burned a cd of my stuff. ill have to see how it sounds on normal speakers.

I was looking for the "Help and How To" section of the boards, but I couldn't find it.

Oh here it is, in the review threads.

Right where it's supposed to be.

Please, carry on.

jseavers05 wrote:ive never burned a cd of my stuff

you're missing out. it makes you feel like a rock god hearing your own stuff on a stereo with meaty speakers. but also, you're missing out cos even I have burned a CD of your stuff. if I ever see ya I'll give you a buck

haha yeah, ill have to make a cd sometime
for the 2436 people that entered this last week, there wasnt a whole lot of reviews.

favorite songs:
befores (not nearly as good as "a day in the life" but you can't be awesome always, but it may be too similar)
barstools (reminds me of bn.l. but that's ok)
carpetburn (totally reminds me of long fin killie, which is pretty cool)
sober (quality!)
jordan (it's jb jr.! good stuff! i might up the vox a slight bit)
leaf (great!)
xtokyo (great. i like the guitar a lot, and the real vox are a good thing. maybe it should build more - but i love the echoey faroff vocal part, awesome)
lonbobby (this one really gets into my head. great vox. and i've always loved that plinky sound which i guess is the guitar strings near the tuning pegs?)
dan-o (this is nice and catchy stuff but i am running out of things to say. good instrment work and vocals)
roymond (great guitar, & i like the vox. i want more present drums)

pretty good songs:
matte (did mp3 compression mess with your cymbals? also watch the poofs)
landfills (doesn't feel like it goes places)
ryan (this isn't bad, but your cadence really bugs me on some lines, there are definitely good parts, like the falsetto but not the one at the end)
lilmoses (sometimes your vox drop away, but your flow is not bad here. skip the solo section. i feel like your best points were early on, and the girl vox is not convincing)
ipa (dodgy recording is hurting this, pretty cool though.)
flxvxxxx (two parts don't work well together, like two totally different songs)
ross (guitar is recorded kind of sharp on the top end, the vocals are a bit flatty, and the drum fill sounds very fakey without sounding like it should be fakey, pretty catchy tho)
kill (you already know this is really quiet. it is pretty good but it cheeses me off when the next song blasts my speakers. also, the phrase "snotty sleeves" maybe should not appear in a song )
uncle (i like this, probably more than the rest of the songs in this category, but it's not grabbing me)
martin (it's ok, vocals are quite nice)
wages (the guitar line is good but it's too much repeated. vox are a little shaky)
andy (this is pretty cool. sounds good and everything, but it needs to be more exciting)

bad people who submit to both fights:
damien verrett ... or is it jonas? (hmm, it's ok, keys are good)
eclectic spoons (don't like the song either)

who could get my vote? one of these: carpetburn, sober, jordan, leaf, xtokyo, dano, roymond... but my favorite one of all these is LEAF!

this fight, i think, was quite good. look at all the ones i considered for my vvote! Awesome.
-bill

Leaf: nice intro. Am I gonna be all atmospheric? No! I’m gonna rock yer balls off. This is good and I like chugging, but here the guitar seems a bit too tinny to chug with enough girth. It’s good for face melting solos though, and your voice suits it really well; emotional, but the right side of whiny.

Andy Balham: I don’t really like this much. And it’s a fundamental music problem, ie. Well executed but badly written. It just doesn’t do anything that I want it to do, or rather, that I don’t expect it to do.

Barstools: Not really into this much either, sorry. It’s well played and better written imo than andy balham’s, in that it has a nice melody; but it still doesn’t do much that catches my ear. I’d expect to hear this on the radio

Befores: I’d really like this depending on my mood, it’s nice and chilled in a Zero7 type way, and I’m sometimes up for stuff like that. Nice swells and smooth textures; but I do like something a bit challenging and I typed that just as you sang “lazy afternoons lying in the grassâ€

Carpetburn wrote:there, finally got it in, just in time for them to make no difference whatsoever. do i get a prize?

No, just a big "thank you!"