The Song Fight Bulletin Board

It is easy for me to make a beat using drum machine software (like I did for my song at http://www.nerdcoresongs.com/hardcorelove.htm ), or using the built in beats on a keyboard like the Yamaha PSR-70 which LML uses. But, that is not really enough to make it a hip-hop beat. It still needs an instrument (keyboard, guiter, etc...) and also it needs to change at the chorus. I don't play any instruments, so I don't see how I can make a drum beat into a nice sounding hip-hop beat. Even if I played the drums myself, that is not enough to make the beat for a hip-hop song. I have tried beat making software like Cakewalk, Acid Pro, and Beatcraft, but those still basically make the beats from premade loops/sample that come with the software (unless you play your own instruments). I don't see how that is much different than my working with premade beats.

None of my songs ever use samples from real songs, I always use beats from hip-hop beat makers made specifically for people like me to rap/sing to, liek at http://www.soundclick.com/genres/Charts ... bgenre=168

I can pretty much guarantee nobody else has ever made a song using the same music I have used. Even if they use one of those same premade beats, I am sure they change it around or add to it to make the song. Or, on my Get A Life song, I changed the beat around to fit my chorus, so there is no way any other song could be the same.

Also, I do not find a good beat and then write a song to match it like most people do. I write the song first with no beat. Not just the lryics, but I come up with a melody in my head and sing it with no beat. I then try to find a beat to match it. I of course have to make some changes once I find a beat, in order to make it match better. My "Convalescense" song for example uses a beat that has no chorus at all. The whole beat is just one short loop played over and over again. But, the final version of my song has a very distinctive chorus because of the way I wrote it and the way I sing it and the production changes I made. There is no way anybody else would ever make a song that sounds anything like mine from that same beat.

The point is that each of my songs is a totally new song. It is not a remake or alternate version of another song, it does not sample from other songs, and does not sound like any other song. If I was the lead singer in a band I would not create my own background music, I would just write the song and work with my band to create the music for it. So, I don't see how what I do is any different. Yes, it might be misleading because people think I actually create the beat from scratch, but that is because the vast majority of songfight members are not into hip-hop music. That is just not how the hip-hop business generally works. It is not assumed that the person who made the song also made the beat. Also, many hip-hop artists don't do there own production (reverb, layering, fading, delay, normalization, etc...), they use a producer for it, but I at least do that part myself.

- Eric

your "none of you understand hip-hop" defense is very silly.

You only don't understand our music because you don't like it
- Rik, The Young Ones

Why is that silly? For rock/pop/country/metal there is really no such thing as premade music. I would guess that 99% of singers from those types of music don't use premade beats (maybe 100%). Many don't make their own music, but that is because they are in a band so the band name is on the song.

For hip-hop, that is just not how it works. If you listen to any random hip-hop song, there is a very good chance the person who sings the song and wrote the song did not make the beat. But, only their name is on the song. The beatmaker/producer does not get credit.

- Eric

impulse wrote: I did not create the beat totally from scratch, but hardly anybody does that.

impulse wrote: the vast majority of songfight members are not into hip-hop music

impulse wrote: it is not assumed that the person who made the song also made the beat

impulse wrote: I would guess that 99% of singers from those types of music don't use premade beats

I think maybe there is just a little too much assuming going on here. All sorts of weird shit can happen when people make music - both in Songfight and the real world. There aren't any rules.

No one will really care if you do or don't use pre-made beats. It's what you do with them that counts.

impulse wrote: For rock/pop/country/metal there is really no such thing as premade music.

Yes there is. If you've got 3 chords - you got a pop song. Add a hat and a dead dog - you got a country song. Add an Angus Young riff and some drum fills and suddenly it's rock song. Then put on some tight trousers and growl like Satan - and hey presto! It's Metal! It may be slightly more complex than just pushing a button on a drum-machine - but there are still plenty of "pre-sets" to use. And just like "pre-made" music - there is nothing wrong with using cliches (and by golly, I've used a few in my time ) - it all comes down to how you use them

Smalltown Mike:

I do make the music myself, for the most part. I play guitar, piano, and sometimes even harmonica if I'm drunk enough. But the fact is if using a pre-existing beat will make the song better than doing something on my own, then I will. And don't assume I don't collaborate--I'm currently involved in projects right now where I work with other people. I just don't always have the time or the patience to wait on someone to come up with a beat that suits my needs. I'm currently practicing making my own beats, but while that still sucks, I'm going to use preexisting beats in the mean time. So essentially, I understand both sides of the argument.

Impulse:

I don't think it's fair to assume we don't listen to or know about hip hop. I listen to indie just as long as I've been listening to hip hop, which is for most of my life. I will say this though, I think people focus way too much on the way they got the song finished than the end result. If you use a sample or pre-made beat and the song rocks ass, that's great. I would much rather listen to a song made with samples than one that's all done by scratch that sounds like pure crap. And believe me when I say I've heard some of that in song fight. A nice effort to do it all on their own, when they don't actually have the talent yet to do it.

There's nothing wrong with doing it from a strictly traditional way, but there's no need for either sides to bash each other. I think that just gets in the way of what's important, and that's making a song that doesn't suck.[/b]

The majority of people who have reviewed my past Songfight songs have said they are not into hip-hop music. I am just poiting out to them that unlike pretty much all other types of music (like the kind they make), for many of the hip-hop songs they hear, the singer did not make the beat. A beatmaker or producer made it. This is not assumed at all for rock or country songs, even simple 3 chord ones. So, even though it is possible to create a rock song using a premade beat, hardly any songs you would hear on the radio actually do that. With hip-hop it is totally different, but most people would have no idea how a hip-hop song is made if they are not into that type of music. They are criticizing me for doing the same thing most other hip-hop artists do.

Yes, I could spend years learning how to create my own beats from scratch like LML is trying to do, but I don't think the end result would do my songs justice. Plus, she plays the piano, so that gives her at elast some ability to make the beats sound good. I already suck as singer, so having bad background music for my songs would just make the whole thing 10 times worse. Also, time is a big factor. I have hired people in the past to make custom beats for me (not for songfight songs) to match songs I wrote and it takes them 4-7 days to get this done, and they are professional beatmakers. So, for me to write a song, record it, do the production, and create a custom beat all by myself all in 1 week is not very realistic. Even just choosing the beat is a big project. It takes me several hours to find a beat to use, and then several more hours to modify my song to fit the beat (or modify the beat to fit the song).

I would be very happy to collaborate with another songfigher participant on my songs, where they make the beats/music for me, but very few of the participants seem able to do that for hip-hop music.

- Eric

impulse wrote:...unlike pretty much all other types of music (like the kind they make), for many of the hip-hop songs they hear, the singer did not make the beat. A beatmaker or producer made it. This is not assumed at all for rock or country songs, even simple 3 chord ones.

...

So, for me to write a song, record it, do the production, and create a custom beat all by myself all in 1 week is not very realistic.

C'mon, you can do it! After all, us other types do, right?

Also: I'm in this fight, but I have no idea what with. I'm kind of in the mood to do some hip-hop now, actually.

jimtyrrell wrote:I'm kind of in the mood to do some hip-hop now, actually.

i want to hear that!

jimtyrrell - hip-hop is different than almost all the other types of music, because it generally does not use live instruments. If you play guiter, you can just strum your guitar and sing and make a song. I am not saying it is that easy, but in 10 minutes you could make some sort of song, even if you have little talent. But, with hip-hop, unless you are at the level of being a rap record producer or hip-hop sound engineer, it is not that easy to create an actual song with verses and choruses. Even just using a drum machine for that is hard, because you need to change it all around for the chorus. And, the drums are only just part of what is needed to make the beat. You can't have a good hip-hop beat with only drums.

Yes, some hip-hop artists have live bands, but the point is they don't play the music themselves, the band does. If I had a hip-hop band, that would be great, but I don't.

- Eric

Well, I've still got half a week. I'll give this hip hop thing a try. Beats from scratch and rhymes to match.

(Yeah, it's only gonna be about that good, folks.)

Sounds good. The challenge is on!

- Eric

impulse wrote:jimtyrrell - hip-hop is different than almost all the other types of music, because it generally does not use live instruments. If you play guiter, you can just strum your guitar and sing and make a song. I am not saying it is that easy, but in 10 minutes you could make some sort of song, even if you have little talent. But, with hip-hop, unless you are at the level of being a rap record producer or hip-hop sound engineer, it is not that easy to create an actual song with verses and choruses. Even just using a drum machine for that is hard, because you need to change it all around for the chorus. And, the drums are only just part of what is needed to make the beat. You can't have a good hip-hop beat with only drums.

Yes, some hip-hop artists have live bands, but the point is they don't play the music themselves, the band does. If I had a hip-hop band, that would be great, but I don't.

- Eric

Quit making lame excuses. no one cares. Ridiculous. Who gives a shit if the singer wrote the beats, or the rapper found the sample? You're coming off rather arrogant... and not in a deserving manner! You think you are the living embodiment of hip hop?? Get over yourself. Either your song sucks or it doesn't. Trying to justify your methods and your perception of other people's understanding is a complete RED HERRING.

OH MY GOD. I almost called someone a noob...what have I become????

I am justifying it because if you read the reviews of my songs for my last few songfight songs, many of the comments are about how I don't write my own beats and how they hate hip-hop in general. So, I don't think those people understand how hip-hop songs are generally made.

I have no problem with using premade hip-hop beats, but several people said that my songs using premade beats should probably not be allowed on Songfight, since they are not totally "new" songs.

So, that is what I am responding to.

- Eric

80-90% of Octothorpe's songs use pre-made beats (Yamaha DD-55). Usually, I mix a few of them, and slice and dice, but they start out pre-made. Actually, come to think of it, we use pre-made patches on our synths, most of the time. Damn. Guess we are hip-hip, too.

I don't begrudge you your use of loops. What I disagree with—and what is actually starting to get under my skin—is the assertion you're not required to make your music/beats because you're a rapper, and that we just don't "get" it. For the record, most of us are not 80-year-olds who have never heard a rap song.

And the assertion that anyone who can play guitar can throw together a song in 10 minutes but that you need to be a real pro to make rap beats is ludicrous beyond belief. (And yes, I know that Ludicris is a rapper. No, I don't know who makes his beats.) No one is born knowing how to play guitar or make beats, that takes years of practice.

Again, make your own beats or don't. I don't care. But don't tell us we don't understand that you're just not required to make your own beats/music because, well, that's just the way it is. And don't say that buying/DL'ing a beat from the internet is the same as a singer having a band, cuz it's not. Singers usually collab with the band, for one—except when you're in a band with Leaf, in which case he makes all the decisions because it's his parents' garage.

For the record, my original suggestion that you would feel better about the songs you make if you did it all yourself was honestly meant to be encouraging in a "try hard and you'll get better at it" kind of way. You don't know how to make beats yet because you haven't put in the time to learn yet—and sometimes that takes years. Practice, and you'll get there.

Spud wrote:80-90% of Octothorpe's songs use pre-made beats (Yamaha DD-55). Usually, I mix a few of them, and slice and dice, but they start out pre-made. Actually, come to think of it, we use pre-made patches on our synths, most of the time. Damn. Guess we are hip-hip, too.

It's worth pointing out, I think, that when Eric uses the word 'beats' what he actually means is 'everything but vocals and lyrics'. Given that when I collab, I tend to do everything except vocals and lyrics, I find his dismissal of my input as 'beats' rather offensive, but that's life I guess.

LML wrote:I've been messing around with the piano making my own beats, but I'm a LONG way from being able to make them usable in a song.

You might find it a lot easier to just try programming them into a sequencer/drum machine rather than trying to play them on a keyboard. I do, at any rate :)

I am not saying it is easy to make your own song on a guitar, I am just saying it is possible to make stupid/bad one in 5 minutes if you really want to (see tons of stupid guitar songs on youtube.com). But, there is not really any way to quickly make a custom beat to match a song that you wrote.

I agree it takes much more talent to play your own instruments, and I wish I could play guitar or keyboards. Anybody who writes their songs and plays all the music is much more talented than me. Anybody like can rap over premade music so not much talent is required, although writing a song and compsoing a melody still takes some skill.

I am just pointing out that it may not be as easy to make your own beats as many of the people (non-hiphop listeners) have suggested. I am not sure they understand how hard that is. It is like telling me to go learn to play guitar. Yes, I could spend years doing that, but I don't really want to. I would rather focus on writing better songs.

- Eric

obscurity - I agree, "beats" have a different meaning when it comes to hip-hop. It means the background music. The beats I use are not very creative at all compared to something you would make when you collab with anotehr artist. I would consider what you contribute to be the "music". A hip-hop beat is just a basic electronic loop with a few changes thrown in, and some extra stuff added to make the chorus sound a little different. Sometimes there is no chorus at all.

impulse wrote:I am just pointing out that it may not be as easy to make your own beats as many of the people (non-hiphop listeners) have suggested.

What makes you think that writing backing music for a hiphop song is any harder than writing backing music for, say, a goth song?

obscurity - It is not that it is harder to make hip-hop music, but usually anybody with just a little bit of musical training can play something on the keyboards or guitar to sing to, to create a song no matter how bad it sounds. But, it is not so easy to make a hip-hop beat to match your song, even if you just want to make a simple bad version.

I think creating the background music for a goth song takes much more talent than what I do, but the point is I assume you already play some instrument, so if you wanted to you could bang out the music to a Goth song in 10 minutes if you wanted to make a very amateur version of it.

I play no instruments, and like many many hip-hop artists I don't have music producer beat making type skills yet, it is just not possible at all for me to make the background music for my songs. I am not saying I can't learn, I hope someday I will be able to do it, but if I want to make a song right now using loops or premade beats is my only option.

There are many singers/songwriters out there who do not play instruments, so usually they join a band. If I had a band, my contribution would be exactly the same as what I do now (the band would make the music part for me and I would write the melody and music), so I am sure why it really matters where the music comes from, as long as I am creating a totally new song out of it. If I had a band who would make the music for me, it would make things much much easier for me and I would be very happy with that.

So, I guess what I am saying is that there are many great singers/songwriters who don't play their own music, especially in hip-hop, they just write the songs (and many times they don't even write the songs themselves, but that is a whole other topic). I think I am good at writing songs, and although I suck at singing them, I able to at least put out what some might consider passable songs, even if they don't like them very much. So I don't see why on top of that I should have to play all the instruments to make the music, or create my own beats from scratch for the music. If I can create a good song that is unlike any other songs out there, isn't that what matters?

- Eric