The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Cool song, sounds like that Norwegian metal I've been hearing of late. But yeah, the kick sounded pretty good in the second half. Were you using a trigger in the beginning?

Trigger? What that?

Billy's Little Trip wrote:I've been adding a mild room reverb on my snare, hat, room and overhead mics and just a tiny bit on the kick and toms. Dry drums have no pizazz and too much makes them noisy and lose the snap I like.

I've been wondering about your drums. They sound amazing! I assumed they were programmed (really well), but are they actually live?!

Hey. I decided that this would be a more appropriate thread for this comment, as a lot of my reviews for Gray Rainbow have been about mixing in some form.

The other post -

So I tried to write a song for Tuneflow, and I thought you guys wouldn't mind giving it a listen. I couldn't fit words in, so I didn't send it in. I moved my kick mic as was suggested by several people, and I tried some different guitar micing (the one dynamic mic instead of a condensor as well). It would be cool if you guys gave me some feedback on it - especially on the kick drum sound in comparison to my other songs. I know it's not perfect, but I think it's better than my other mix for gray rainbow.
Here it is!

First off I'd like to say, you are a bad ass drummer. Second, that is a sweet guitar chorus.

Ok, let me start with the drums.
The first thing in the production sound is the lack of sustain. Too much gate? There are no dynamics. Too much compression? The snare should have the snap of a piccolo, but still have the mids. The cymbal should have more than just hiss. The crashes sound like splashes. The kick lacks hit.
Good things: nice mid/low mids, nice thump tone on the kick. Great playing.
These are just production comments. The drummers here will have to advice you on the nuts and bolts.

Now the guitar: It's annoying as f**k! I want to kill you right now. Are you just plugging it straight into the board/computer?
Good things: Cool rhythm, I could really sing at a different level to it. Cool changes.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:First off I'd like to say, you are a bad ass drummer.

Thanks. It actually means a lot to hear that.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:The first thing in the production sound is the lack of sustain. Too much gate?

Billy's Little Trip wrote:There are no dynamics. Too much compression?

One thing I did with this track was leave it alone. I did not compress anything, and I gated nothing except for the toms, which I believe should be gated to keep the mix from feeling muddy. Do you think I should leave the gate off on the toms?

Billy's Little Trip wrote:The snare should have the snap of a piccolo, but still have the mids. The cymbal should have more than just hiss. The crashes sound like splashes. The kick lacks hit.

Do you guys have any suggestions for this? Different micing techniques? I've got pictures of my mic setup on the first page of this thread (but since then I have moved the tom mics up a bit and pointed the kick mic at the contact point). Do you think I should move my snare mic?

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Now the guitar: It's annoying as f**k! I want to kill you right now. Are you just plugging it straight into the board/computer?

Sorry to disappoint, but I miced it with one dynamic, as suggested in the other thread. I would never plug it straight into the board. Maybe I should crank the mids/bass on my amp so it's not so trebly ... would you suggest that?

Can I hear just a mix of the drums? I think they sound pretty good.

The guitar is a little harsh and lacking in low end. Try setting your amp with all the knobs on 5. Turn up all the knobs on your guitar and just use the bridge pick up. Keep things as simple as possible to start.

Try using less mics on the drums next time. Just one overhead, kick and snare. See what you can do with that.

Ken

The reason I thought you were gating the drums is because everything seemed to fade out so fast. I like a little gak in the mix personally, as long as it doesn't muddy up the mix.
Are you EQing the final mix? I'm just trying to figure out why there is so much mid highs and highs, and very little bottom. Also the snare just doesn't snap.
I'm still learning the engineering part too, so I'll play with it on my end and see where I can change things and follow up here.

You know, I also suggest that you put a mic near your ear and record it. Try to see if that mic sounds like what you hear in the room. This is easier to do with a friend so you can stand back from the kit, but you can also get a mic in next to you while you sit at the kit.

Ken

That's a great idea Ken.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:That's a great idea Ken.

http://songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=80181#80181

Damn you and your circular posts.




REMOVE THE SLEEPING BAG. Man, I hate hate HATE that sound. Not the one you recorded, just the use of sleeping bags, pillows, etc.


WORSE case scenario man, use a flannel blanket, folded up. You need air movement in there. If you want to play something that sounds like a box, get a box.


Take a look at 99% of all muffling techniques... there is some absorption, and I'd suggest a little head muting, and lots of room for air.

If you fold a blanket up so it's not much more than 2 inches thick in profile, lay it inside the head, let the edges of the blanket touch both the batter and resonant heads... you'll get absorption, air movement, head muting, all in one.

that's my thought on that...


also, a lot of drummers will just go wide open with their kicks. I've personally not had much success with that, but I've heard it done well, and it sounds fucking great. I suppose I should learn how to tune that way...but whatever. REMOVE THE SLEEPING BAG. (and the body parts in it).

I remixed a Jim's Big Ego song (Mix Tape) once for a contest they had, and their source files were very straightforward. They had a stereo pair of overheads, a snare mic, and a kick mic -- that's it. Sounded good to me.

c hack wrote:I remixed a Jim's Big Ego song (Mix Tape) once for a contest they had, and their source files were very straightforward. They had a stereo pair of overheads, a snare mic, and a kick mic -- that's it. Sounded good to me.

but those weren't $20 chinese dynamic mics.

Leaf wrote:REMOVE THE SLEEPING BAG.

That seems like pretty good advice. Maybe I should go for it.

Ya JR, I second Leaf's advice. Your kick drum tone has no body. It's all beater.

jr wrote:Do you think I should move my snare mic?

Where you have it now, you'll capture body but not snap. If you can get a "live" surface under the snare drum (I use old pergo tiles, but anything hard and reflective will work) your OHs will capture a snappier sound, so your current snare mic placement will work to fill this out. But if you want the snare mic to capture a broader snare tone, you'll need to try something like blue's from-the-side or my over-the-rim technique.

Other things I hear:
- The cymbal that predominates on the right (the stax?) sounds almost distorted. How close is it to the OH? (It also has no shimmer in the top-end, though I suspect that's 'cause of the microphones.) It's mostly just a muddy splash that masks detail in the rest of the kit.
- Your snare has a boxy tone. I think that's what BLT was getting at with his lack of sustain comment. Is the drum kit on carpet?
- Also, those ICM 417's are unidirectional. So the way you have them set up, you're capturing NO room sound. (Especially if you're playing over carpet)

Ken's suggestion (use one or two mics) is a good one for experimentation. Do you have a buddy who can play the kit while you walk around the room? My fail-safe drum miking method is just that: find a place in the room where the drums sound good to my ears. Put my best mic there. Then augment this sound as needed (usually a mic on kick, snare, and by the drummer's ear.)

Would you be game for posting your raw drum tracks? I'll bet even with your current set up, some of us can give you pointers on EQ and compression that'll beef up your sound.

Des brought up something I was thinking about last night. What is covering the floor below your drums? Bright, reflective surfaces usually sound best. Like wood flooring. The same might be true for that packing blanket you have on the wall in front of your kit. When was the last time you took that down to compare the sound of your drums?

Ken

I will get some pics of my room up soon, and I'll put up links to the mp3 tracks of that new song. I don't think I'll put the tracks for gray rainbow up, since one project would probably be enough for you guys. That'll be up in a day probably.

ps) and yes, my room has carpet. everywhere.

Hey, I used to use carpet on the ceiling and walls...you should try bed foam. It's relatively cheap...and the sound is vastly superior to carpet, but it has the same attenuation effect that carpet brings, just doesn't attenuate so low.

Here we are.

Overheads
Kick
Snare
Hitom
Midtom
Lowtom
Guitar

And here's some pics of the room, with a few explanations.










That bad sound you mentioned probably wouldn't be the stax, since they're pretty far away, and I only used them once in the song.


It could be the china ...


Or the splash

I hope you guys find this stuff useful. By the way, where do I get bed foam, and about how much would it cost? Would I use it on the floor or the walls?

Well, not everyone will agree with the use of it... but I find it works, and it's great for practicing in. I have it on the ceiling and walls, witha carpeted floor. I like it.



It's about 20-25 bucks Canadian for a queen sized section. I'd put it on the ceiling directly above your kit. But suss out other opinions first too. If I get time and remember I'll take some pics with my webcam.

Great tracks Roger. I can't wait to get back and mix them.

jolly roger wrote:Here we are.
Overheads

Thanks for posting those!

OK, here's what I hear:

- There's no kick drum in the overheads!! That's probably the single biggest issue with your sound. The overheads should pick up most of the kick's resonance. Without that, your kick is always going to sound too dry.

Rule of thumb: your overheads should account for 80-90% of the recorded drum sound. Basically, you want to hear the overheads and think "yeah, that could work as my drum track," then add close mics only to fill things out.

- It's sounds to me like you're hitting everything hard. That's good for the snare and tom sound, but bad for the cymbal/overhead sound. Forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know: Live playing and studio playing are different skills. Great studio drummers underplay their cymbals and hihats, and beat the hell out of the snare drum and toms (where a live drummer will play the cymbals far more dynamically.) The cymbals are overpowering in your overhead track.

- In that 3rd picture, it looks like your kit is facing into a wall. Is there any way you can turn it around, so the kick drum is playing out to the room?

Either way, here's what I'd do in your situation.
- Work at playing the cymbals softer. It won't sound right (at first) from behind the kit, but your overhead track will be cleaner and more focussed.
- Find a way to get more kick drum into the overheads. One trick that often works in small rooms is to use "underheads" instead. Get the OH mics lower, pointing up. Maybe 2 feet off the ground, on either side of the kit, pointed at your head.
- Make sure you gate the tom tracks in the mix .. There's a lot of LF ringing there that's only going to add mud.

One other thing: The guitar ... It's a stereo track. Wassup with that? I might have missed where you said there were 2 mics on the cab. In any event, the two channels are badly out of phase. That's a big part of the reason your guitar sounds so thin.


For shits and giggles, here's everything beefed up with some EQ and compression. (Parallel compression on the kick and snare, like we discussed the other day.)