The Song Fight Bulletin Board

So today I went to a memorial service for one of my co-workers. He was killed in the 35W bridge collapse. He was missing for 12 days. I really need closure on his death and didn't know him well enough to feel comfortable at his funeral. I'm really glad that my work set up the memorial service today for any employee who wanted to go. A lot of people spoke and told nice stories about him. I cried a bunch.

But the clencher was when his wife got up in front of a room of about 500 people and spoke freely about her husband with out breaking down. She was amazing. She actually said "And if you guys need anything, just let me know because I know how you feel". Of all the people to offer support! That made me cry so much. His dad spoke, that was hard. Earlier in the month, the executives said that we could donate 8 hours of Paid Time Off (PTO) so Scott's wife could have a paycheck while he was still missing. Hundreds of people donated. That's so cool. I'm in the red PTO wise, so I couldn't donate.

Anyway, all in all, it was just what I needed on that front, the closure... except, (and I guess it was to be expected) most everyone who spoke about Scott, alluded to, but never actually mentioned, the whole god and heaven thing. Well, the Chief Operating Officer did, and that was weird, but almost everyone tip toed around the subject. I guess that kinda ties in with the QotD, but not really. It made me feel uncomfortable because I do not consider myself religous, at all. It just felt so weird to hear people say stuff like they know they'll see him agian and stuff.

Thanks for reading all that if you did. I feel the need to talk about this. I was raised in a family that never really talked about anything, especially death. That kinda fucked me up as a kid, and to be able to openly talk about a person who died (practically unheard of in my family) is so refreshing.

When I got home from work, Phil, Allison and I accompanied Spencer to his school's open house. He starts pre-K on Thursday. Turns out we showed up on the wrong day. We get to meet his teacher on Tuesday. I'm so excited for him to go to school, but sad and worried too. It's a big milestone for my baby boy and for me. I can't believe I will be sending my little dude off to school on a school bus with big kids... 6th graders! He's such a little big and a big little.

Well, at least one person is listening (reading?), and I'm guessing many more. Thanks for sharing - cool that you have a place to get stuff off your chest.

Heather. Redmon. wrote: Thanks for reading all that if you did. I feel the need to talk about this. I was raised in a family that never really talked about anything, especially death. That kinda fucked me up as a kid, and to be able to openly talk about a person who died (practically unheard of in my family) is so refreshing.

It is refreshing, and it does nobody any good to pretend that our dead didn't live. This is one of the things I've learned in the past years. Remember, and especially remember together.
-bill

yeah, thanks for sharing that heather. some of us, even though we don't "know" you, know you to be a good person. whether you are religious or not, it's obvious that the outpouring of love and support that this person had touched you, even though as you said you didn't know them well, and thats more than any religion can teach or preacher can preach.

wages: don't believe everything that you see, just because they wrote it into a movie. like that retarded Spare Change about 9/11. I know how convincing it is that because it's written down, or on a screen, it must be true, but be skeptical when you watch things, especially things putting out such an extraordinarily minority viewpoint.

16th amendment: <i>The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.</i> it was ratified in 1911. yes, it sure was. I haven't seen this movie you refer to, but if it makes a retarded argument about Ohio, <a href="http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_127.html">it's retarded</a>--there were enough votes for ratification, and also Ohio was a state. the Federal Reserve is a quasi-non-governmental organization, or QUANGO, as it devotes any profit to the government, its most powerful members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and its board is basically like any other federal-level department. also, the US Mint prints our money, on paper made by the Crane Paper Company (who have a lot of great stationery, btw). if WW2 was made simply to make money, you're alleging that the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, the German invasions of Poland, Austria, Belgium, France, etc., the bombing of the UK, were all fabricated, based on what you saw in a free movie online. all right, dude. occam's razor. come on. your dad would probably be pretty disappointed that you misspelled his alma mater (which, I presume, is Johns Hopkins... I don't think there exists a John Hopkins university). also unless I missed something AIDS isn't cured. where the hell did you pluck this 165 figure for your IQ. why is it the fault of the government and not your own fault, or maybe the fault of genetics, that you don't have your father's ambition. we haven't had a presidential assassination in quite a while, and to suppose that you're important enough that anyone would care to kill you is pretty egotistical.

lordy b'gordy, man. jesus.

I'm not a Trust-Your-Government Theodore or anything, but to say that Clarence Thomas is an Uncle Tom, or that Bush engineered 9/11 to make some money, etc., I mean, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. In a conspiracy theorist's worldview, there are no coincidences. There are a lot of problems with our system, and sometimes I really do feel like I can't conceivably do anything now or ever, but most of the time I have some small hope and faith that things are going upward and not downward.

--marcus kellis, third-year political science student

Jesus, WWII, 9-11, and the Federal Reserve?

I haven't seen this film, but its focus sounds much too narrow! What about Roswell, the grassy knoll, and the fake moon landing to name a just a few significant omissions?

also... "the number 12"? every number until like 20 has so much "significance" that you can connect any of them to everything else.

Heather. Redmon. wrote:Anyway, all in all, it was just what I needed on that front, the closure...

Thanks for sharing that Heather. I was raised in a similar family. My German-English heritage brings out the closed, stoic soul of ice when it comes to intimacy.

I don't want to steer this away from your experience, but I'd like to share similar ones that stand out. I had two co-workers (at different times) call me into their office and essentially inform me that they were leaving on medical leave due to the demands of their respective treatments against incurable diseases. One had cancer, the other AIDS. Here was someone whom I'd worked closely with for years telling me they were going to die and thanking me. And one of them saying they hoped we'd see some art films in the coming months (which we did, AIDS didn't hospitalize him for 6 more months).

When Dorothy died, she had arranged every aspect of her service. The jazz music she loved, the poetry that gave her strength. And it wasn't a sad giving-in to the inevitable. It was happy, inspiring and laughingly proud about the life she led. It made me proud to have known her, and when Dennis died it helped me realize that this guy had lived an amazing life and he had such an impact on me. It instilled in me the belief that the afterlife is defined by the impression you make on others. You live on through THEIR memories of you and through the way you've affected THEM, directly or otherwise. This, instead of the egocentric version of an afterlife having YOUR own body and seeing those people YOU miss.

What nice posts, Heather and Roymond. I've mentioned it before, and Jack kind of hinted at it, but this is the humanizing part of the internet experience that makes you feel connected with people you may never meet. Thanks for sharing.

roymond wrote:

Wages wrote:I meant within the film itself. I assumed he cited his facts somewhere, and I know he's written a lot of books. Sadly, the most reading I do is 50% online, 49% at work, and only 1% elsewhere. But documentaries... oh buddy, I watch a lot!

You mean, like, someone in the corner of the screen citing each statement in sign language or something?

Yeah, wouldn't that be funny?

Heather. Redmon. wrote:So today I went to a memorial service for one of my co-workers.

Thanks for reading all that if you did. I feel the need to talk about this. I was raised in a family that never really talked about anything, especially death. That kinda fucked me up as a kid, and to be able to openly talk about a person who died (practically unheard of in my family) is so refreshing.

Sorry to hear your day was so sober, but its always good the be able to work things out. I've never lost a remotely close family member, but a few people I went to school with have died (one was a friend similar to your coworker). He was hit by lightening at age 23. Great guy, great attitude, didn't see "good" and "bad" people: why is it always the good guys?

Our family talked, well, it was actually more yelling, but we still don't see eye-to-eye (especially since 95% of my family is fundamentalist evangelical Christian [no offense to any Christians]; leaving basically me and my dad). This is part of the reason why America needs a return to community-based society and a completely revised education system: both of these could help people learn how to better communicate and how to be open and honest, not reserved/boisterous and uninterested/deceitful . Oops, soapbox...

About death, I think we are disconnected from nature to the point that we are removed even from the nature of ourselves. As a society, I think we need to be returning to keeping everything out in the open (don't hide kids from seeing death and sex; it is all natural and is part of the human experience). I shouldn't have to be apprehensive about going to an open casket, but I am. What's up wit dat? Course I'm not saying we shouldn't feel sad when we lose someone (far from it), just that we are allowed to have a greater understanding of life's cycles.

Heather, thank you for sharing.

Whoa there pilgrim! I may not be all that eloquent, but I'm not just making stuff up either.

mkilly wrote:wages: don't believe everything that you see, just because they wrote it into a movie. like that retarded Spare Change about 9/11. I know how convincing it is that because it's written down, or on a screen, it must be true, but be skeptical when you watch things, especially things putting out such an extraordinarily minority viewpoint.

I understand your point and agree. Its not like I think it is all 100% spot on the truth, but I think it is all very possible and certainly worth discussion.

mkilly wrote:there were enough votes for ratification, and also Ohio was a state. the Federal Reserve is a quasi-non-governmental organization, or QUANGO, as it devotes any profit to the government, its most powerful members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and its board is basically like any other federal-level department. also, the US Mint prints our money, on paper made by the Crane Paper Company (who have a lot of great stationery, btw).

Why is "appointed by the.." good? Sure seems like it would be better if the people were simply able to vote for these positions. Maybe that wasn't possible in the past, but it is now, especially if government was made smaller.

mkilly wrote:if WW2 was made simply to make money, you're alleging that the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, the German invasions of Poland, Austria, Belgium, France, etc., the bombing of the UK, were all fabricated, based on what you saw in a free movie online.

Sorry I let it sound like that. The points made in the video were that Roosevelt made decisions that encouraged Japan to attack us AND that he was warned that there were Japanese ships coming towards Hawaii days before Pearl Harbor. So it is not that WW2 was faked, but our involvement was to make money. Maybe Roosevelt knew the war would help the people finish their progression out of the depression but needed to be involuntarily entered into the war for the people to accept it. I definitely do not have the political science knowledge you do, but I can accept the possibility that real motives are not necessary recorded by history books.

mkilly wrote:your dad would probably be pretty disappointed that you misspelled his alma mater (which, I presume, is Johns Hopkins... I don't think there exists a John Hopkins university). also unless I missed something AIDS isn't cured. where the hell did you pluck this 165 figure for your IQ. why is it the fault of the government and not your own fault, or maybe the fault of genetics, that you don't have your father's ambition. we haven't had a presidential assassination in quite a while, and to suppose that you're important enough that anyone would care to kill you is pretty egotistical.

No excuse for misspelling the university.

He "worked on a cure for AIDS", not that it has happened yet.

In school (I don't know, around the 4th grade; yes I realize that is an old stat), I was given an IQ test (granted, it was in Arkansas) that involved various skill tests (problem solving, pattern matching-type exercises, math, and so on; if memory serves, the tests lasted around an hour). Afterwards, the number was 165 (I have taken multiple IQ tests online for whatever they are worth, and yes, then number is now around 135 to 145 but that could mean a bunch of stuff, or nothing at all). So then I was moved to a "gifted and talented" program (which is not "special kids", but "advanced", their words, not mine) in that school where I was offered "more substantial classes" such as sign language, academic competition opportunities (things like speech and debate), computers, Spanish, extensive studies in pre-history (dinosaurs and such), presidential history, and so on. The kinds of things that they don't generally teach 4th and 5th graders (at least, not at the schools I attended).

My education and the fault of the government... maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I have talked to a lot of people from before my generation who talk about what they were taught in school and I compared it to what I was taught, and it mostly seems they received a more well-rounded education.

As far as assassination... from my limited knowledge, it seems that there is persecution (Jesus, real or not real) or are assassination attempts or successes whenever someone really seems to be on the political side of humanity (as opposed to the political side of money/corporations or one's self): Martin Luther King Jr, JFK, Bobby Kennedy, Lincoln (though some debate his goodness so far as its relation to freeing of the slaves), John Lennon, etc, etc.

I was learning about Ron Paul (R-Texas) last night and I think a lot of what he says makes sense, but it seems he probably won't gain enough support to get close to Rudy, which may or may not have anything to do with media control. And I completely forgot where I was going with that....

mkilly wrote:I'm not a Trust-Your-Government Theodore or anything, but to say that Clarence Thomas is an Uncle Tom, or that Bush engineered 9/11 to make some money, etc., I mean, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. In a conspiracy theorist's worldview, there are no coincidences. There are a lot of problems with our system, and sometimes I really do feel like I can't conceivably do anything now or ever, but most of the time I have some small hope and faith that things are going upward and not downward.

Would not the silent hands of the elite be able to hide their involvement? This is why there is no proof. The whole ousting of Nixon would probably not have happened without Watergate (disclaimer: I know very little about the details of Watergate, so no need to go into my ignorance ), and the lack of evidence surely otherwise would have left you saying the same thing. So, I think it is better to assume the government is always corrupt or will quickly become so. Therefore we need to always scrutinize it, spank it, send it to its room, and get rid of its toys if necessary. Not let it pass legislature that allows them to bust into my house if they suspect me of being a terrorist. Not let it get so big that the people can't really decide anything.

I think ALL laws should be voted on by the people. Period. We can have Congress to help us word things well (people like you Marcus!), but then we should be able to vote on it. WE should have a line-item veto; if a great enough percentage of the people mark out a section of a law, it is removed but the remainder can be ratified.

I don't know, I'm just a simple person who thinks he knows what he's talking about. But it sure seems to make sense to me.

EDIT: Normally I try to proofread my posts, but I'd be late for work, so here ya go!

Paco Del Stinko wrote:What nice posts, Heather and Roymond. I've mentioned it before, and Jack kind of hinted at it, but this is the humanizing part of the internet experience that makes you feel connected with people you may never meet. Thanks for sharing.

I feel the same way.

EDIT: Oops, another 4-pack. All my typing happens at once.

mkilly wrote:
--marcus kellis, third-year political science student

"Politcal Science"?!? WTF is that? Is that what your course is actually called? When did politics become a science? That's even worse than hearing an economist call himself a scientist.

But you know what really is pissing me off at the moment. Frikkin ARCHITECTS. What a waste of space they are. Every single one of them should be taken outside and clubbed about the head with a blunt object, then shot (present company excepted of course Spud, I'm sure you are the exception to the rule). First, I've got one of the silly pricks working on renovating my house..."oh yes Mr Caravan, I know all about energy efficient house design...I'm an ARCHITECT!" Bloody fool hasn't got any idea wht he is talking about - and I've got another team of the idiots bothering me at work where were building a big-arsed bridge and they are stuffing about with fence colours and other crap. If they are not the most useless things on earth after IT professionals and school teachers - I'm a bad judge.

(Note to BLT: I will probably put a pool in my new house - look forward to hearing my views on swimming pool contractors at some time in the near future)

Wages wrote:Would not the silent hands of the elite be able to hide their involvement? This is why there is no proof.

If you start with the premise "The following scenario was caused by someone who was able to remove all evidence of their involvement", then you end up believing damn near anything. We've never been on the moon. The *real* Paul McCartney is dead. A plane didn't fly into the pentagon. Don't be that dude.

A certain about of tongue-in-cheek follows...

Caravan Ray wrote:Frikkin ARCHITECTS ... I've got one of the silly pricks working on renovating my house...

So, after gathering references from trusted sources, viewing prior work and interviewing them, you hire them anyway?

And Political Science "is a branch of social science concerned with theory, description, analysis and prediction of political behavior, political systems and politics broadly-construed." We can't define our own labels until after the fact, typically. Maybe you should worry about the challenges, problems and solutions rather than the labels.

roymond wrote:A certain about of tongue-in-cheek follows...

Caravan Ray wrote:Frikkin ARCHITECTS ... I've got one of the silly pricks working on renovating my house...

So, after gathering references from trusted sources, viewing prior work and interviewing them, you hire them anyway?

Yes - I actually did do all of that, and hired the best one. I may as well just have given $20,000 to the cat.

roymond wrote:
And Political Science "is a branch of social science...

There's your problem, right there. Like saying "Elves are a type of pixie..."

Caravan Ray wrote:

roymond wrote:A certain about of tongue-in-cheek follows...

Caravan Ray wrote:Frikkin ARCHITECTS ... I've got one of the silly pricks working on renovating my house...

So, after gathering references from trusted sources, viewing prior work and interviewing them, you hire them anyway?

Yes - I actually did do all of that, and hired the best one. I may as well just have given $20,000 to the cat.

Meow

roymond wrote:A certain about of tongue-in-cheek follows...

Caravan Ray wrote:Frikkin ARCHITECTS ... I've got one of the silly pricks working on renovating my house...

So, after gathering references from trusted sources, viewing prior work and interviewing them, you hire them anyway?

And Political Science "is a branch of social science concerned with theory, description, analysis and prediction of political behavior, political systems and politics broadly-construed." We can't define our own labels until after the fact, typically. Maybe you should worry about the challenges, problems and solutions rather than the labels.

Then shouldn't we call it politicology? Firefox is telling me it isn't a word but it SHOULD BE.

I actually was about to say the same thing about it being akin to social sciences but you with the bigger brain beat me to it. Just as well I suppose.

mkilly wrote: 16th amendment: <i>The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

This is one of those circle arguments.

Show me where it says I have to pay taxes!
HERE
NO, its not ratified OR ensue argument of the definition of 'income' as defined by U.S. law.
So show me where it says I have to pay taxes.
HERE
NO, its not ratified OR ensue argument of the definition of 'income' as defined by U.S. law.
So show me where it says I have to pay taxes.
HERE
NO, its not ratified OR ensue argument of the definition of 'income' as defined by U.S. law.
So show me where it says I have to pay taxes.
...

(Note to BLT: I will probably put a pool in my new house - look forward to hearing my views on swimming pool contractors at some time in the near future)

Ha, after hearing your view on "educated" professionals, I can't wait to hear your views on guys that get into a business to build something just so he can see girls in bikinis laying around it.

By the way, I'll give all the best advice I can when you're ready. Keep in mind, I'm not a structural engineer. You'll have to get your engineering specs from your local City inspection office. If you are hiring a pool contractor, he will do that for you, as I do for my projects.

Hoblit wrote:

mkilly wrote: 16th amendment: <i>The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

This is one of those circle arguments.

Show me where it says I have to pay taxes!
HERE
NO, its not ratified OR ensue argument of the definition of 'income' as defined by U.S. law.
So show me where it says I have to pay taxes.
HERE
NO, its not ratified OR ensue argument of the definition of 'income' as defined by U.S. law.
So show me where it says I have to pay taxes.
HERE
NO, its not ratified OR ensue argument of the definition of 'income' as defined by U.S. law.
So show me where it says I have to pay taxes.
...

Isn't not payng taxes the whole point of being American? Wasn't that the reason the country was created in the first place - the Founding Fathers expected that their slave-driven economy should be able to happily carry on under the protective umberella of the Britsh Empire - but they didn't want to actually pay for it.