The Song Fight Bulletin Board

A couple of things:

Since you've worked on documentaries you know that it's a lot of work. You can't get a bunch of random footage and expect it to be a great doc (as I'm sure you know). The way to do it "right" would be to have a clear idea of the story you want to tell (and its scope), then fly a crew around to the various songfighters. You could do this by yourself if you know how to set up the camera, lighting, sound, etc.

A couple of relevant docs you might want to look at are "Gigantic" which is a doc about They Might Be Giants that uses concert footage and interviews with the relevant people; "Revolution OS" which is about the creation of Linux, a good template for interviewing a widely dispersed internet community; and "BBS: The Documentary" ( http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/ ) which will be released in January, another doc about online communities. The guy that made the BBS doc actually did it himself, flying around the country with his camera gear.

I'd be happy to contribute the footage I shot in Austin (with the songfighters' permission of course), and I'd be interested in actually working on it, but as is clear I'm not lightning-fast when I'm doing a pro-bono job and a local editor might be a better idea in your case anyway.

But I know I'll buy it when it comes out.

tonetripper wrote:The possibilities are endless and the story with enough good footage will tell the story. The story is the people and the conclusion is in marrying all those ideas. Keep it going. I love the input.

Are documentaries of this nature generally story-boarded in advance? Or does the director/producer decide only after they have all the footage what the story will be? (Or is it a bit of both?)

I'm a big fan of this idea, TT. And I agree with Roymond about the "little guys againt the establishment" angle. Those are the most compelling documentaries. (As an extension of that, imagine getting an established recording artist to submit a song for one of the fights. The contrast between "dude with a big label contract" and "dweeb in a basement and an iMac" would be compelling. Especially when dweeb cleans up in the voting.)

tonetripper wrote:And I disagree with 1516 about people finding it interesting. I think the deal is that it would take a lot of time and lots and lots of footage. The ratio would be somewhere atleast in the neighbourhood of 60 to 1, maybe more. I think the interest is more in the advent of the internet and how it affects artists such as in SF. The idea that you can gain international fame, not that I'm sure that anyone has on SF, but that it's possible and that realistically places like Napster and the pirating going on is altering the face of big business.

Okay, the people who I imagine finding it uninteresting are Jo and Joanne Midddle-America, who have probably seen 2 documentaries in their whole life. If you are shooting for a much smaller scale, there are, of course, people to be found who will find interest in any number of topics.

What I think people would find uninteresting would be Songfight Home Movies, just a bunch of footage of people talking about stories of how they put songs on the internet. True, one could expand the scope of the project to include the daily trials and tribulations of the people involved. No doubt, there are interesting people here with interesting lives, but when I watch a documentary about people I don't know, I need some sort of point to it all. "Why am I watching the day-to-day activities of an architect who lives in Seattle?" Like, however interesting it may be, I want there to be some *reason* why I'm watching a documentary, and I think that good ones (like American Movie) provide a framework within which to present interesting people. I think that a documentary about SF Live could make for a somewhat interesting framework, but if I was watching a documentary about SF Live, I would wonder why I was watching footage where the sound wasn't very good, and the performances were sloppy, and there was nobody in the audience.

The "quest for international fame" angle is an interesting one, and that might be one that might have a wider appeal (which, again, may not be what you were thinking of doing). Do like Supersize Me and pose a question and answer it: "How effective is the internet at getting independent music into the ears of people who would have never heard of it?" How many people across America (or whatever other country or continent) have heard of, like, MC Frontalot? Or the Blind Mime Ensemble? Are they young or old or what? Send out a massive art-mailing asking with SASEs and ask people to reply if they have heard of, say, the music of Carol Cleveland Sings.

I'm probably good for the role of person someone doesn't like.


You have to come out here and film me though Pablo, so we can have some debauchary....no nudie shots though... I sold those rights to Vivid already.



The hardest part you'll have is figuring out who to exclude... Maybe you should do a series instead man... then you could like have a bunch of episodes...maybe sorted by different themes like "nationality", "collabs", "squabbles',,I dunno... you're the film and tv guy!!

I hope this works out for you man... it'd be a great way for you to spend government money, and It'd let you combine a few of your loves!! Go Tone Go!!!!

15-16 puzzle wrote:

tonetripper wrote:And I disagree with 1516 about people finding it interesting. I think the deal is that it would take a lot of time and lots and lots of footage. The ratio would be somewhere atleast in the neighbourhood of 60 to 1, maybe more. I think the interest is more in the advent of the internet and how it affects artists such as in SF. The idea that you can gain international fame, not that I'm sure that anyone has on SF, but that it's possible and that realistically places like Napster and the pirating going on is altering the face of big business.

Okay, the people who I imagine finding it uninteresting are Jo and Joanne Midddle-America, who have probably seen 2 documentaries in their whole life. If you are shooting for a much smaller scale, there are, of course, people to be found who will find interest in any number of topics.

What I think people would find uninteresting would be Songfight Home Movies, just a bunch of footage of people talking about stories of how they put songs on the internet. True, one could expand the scope of the project to include the daily trials and tribulations of the people involved. No doubt, there are interesting people here with interesting lives, but when I watch a documentary about people I don't know, I need some sort of point to it all. "Why am I watching the day-to-day activities of an architect who lives in Seattle?" Like, however interesting it may be, I want there to be some *reason* why I'm watching a documentary, and I think that good ones (like American Movie) provide a framework within which to present interesting people. I think that a documentary about SF Live could make for a somewhat interesting framework, but if I was watching a documentary about SF Live, I would wonder why I was watching footage where the sound wasn't very good, and the performances were sloppy, and there was nobody in the audience.

The "quest for international fame" angle is an interesting one, and that might be one that might have a wider appeal (which, again, may not be what you were thinking of doing). Do like Supersize Me and pose a question and answer it: "How effective is the internet at getting independent music into the ears of people who would have never heard of it?" How many people across America (or whatever other country or continent) have heard of, like, MC Frontalot? Or the Blind Mime Ensemble? Are they young or old or what? Send out a massive art-mailing asking with SASEs and ask people to reply if they have heard of, say, the music of Carol Cleveland Sings.

Did you see Fast Cheap, and Out of Control? I'm pretty sure a researcher who's area is blind mole rats sounded pretty uninteresting before i saw the doc. That movie is pretty killer. Who cares about a wide market for the thing? I wouldn't care if my mom never saw it. It'll probably wind up interesting by default, even if only to the people who are into it. Just follow me and frank around during a songfight live and you'll have enough conflict and stress to entertain any MTV exec.

Wow. Wild!

Mad props, Tone. Follow your freakin' bliss.

Too soon, too early for this, but the poster'd better have a close up of Blue's hands around someone's neck, heh.

...looking in Tone's general direction...

Dark Days was a shit-hot documentary, though the goal-oriented progression of the theme of the editing (shock & contrast -> survival->growth->humanity->escape--whether into death or housing and emotional, financial and environmental stability) wouldn't quite work in this setting, as making music for the love (or hate, as the case may be) of it might be a bit harder to get across to the viewers who only see creation as a means to financial success and fame in the pop machine.

deshead wrote: Are documentaries of this nature generally story-boarded in advance? Or does the director/producer decide only after they have all the footage what the story will be? (Or is it a bit of both?)

I would guess there are documentaries that fall all along the line between both of those frameworks. I would also guess that all documentarians (?) hope to capture "happy accidents" that could never be scripted at all.

I'd suggest that Joe Viewer wants to hear about a combination of J$'s idea, the upload flipside to the "download revolution" and Roymond's point about the independence of this whole creative framework and the legitimacy of its technology. All the cool characters and sub-stories, spats, triumphs will shore that theme up nicely and bring it to life.

And with appropriate music selection, people will definitely be intrigued by this. As a media consumer, I personally enjoy those pieces that start from a position of authenticity, better put, credibility is assumed by the documentary itself. So the bent here would be that this exists, and it's fairly substantial in size, it already rocks whether you, Joe viewer, knew about it or not, and really, you should know about it.

jb wrote:Did you see Fast Cheap, and Out of Control? I'm pretty sure a researcher who's area is blind mole rats sounded pretty uninteresting before i saw the doc. That movie is pretty killer. Who cares about a wide market for the thing? I wouldn't care if my mom never saw it. It'll probably wind up interesting by default, even if only to the people who are into it. Just follow me and frank around during a songfight live and you'll have enough conflict and stress to entertain any MTV exec.

You are wise, because I was just going to namedrop that doc because it's really good and just basically dudes talking, intercut with cool scenery (although I specifically saw that movie because at the time I was obsessed with blind mole rats).

I really don't care about the marketability of something like this either, but was bringing up the point in case tonetripper was making the film in order to get people to see it or to not lose money on.

What I'm really saying is "Don't make something of sucky quality just because you know that everyone here will like it regardless. Make something good."

Great idea TT.

I recently saw Spellbound - an awsome documentary. Who'd have thought a spelling bee would be interesting? No reason why Songfight couldn't be interesting - there's a good collection of talented people and complete loons to choose from.

I'd love to see it structured like Spellbound, or maybe Best in Show - ie. profile various fighters - how they work, how they write etc - showing their journey to the finale - a live Songfight. Or maybe thats a cliche - what do I know?

Let me know if you need to set up a 'Southern Hemisphere Unit' for filming

15-16 puzzle wrote: I really don't care about the marketability of something like this either, but was bringing up the point in case tonetripper was making the film in order to get people to see it or to not lose money on.

What I'm really saying is "Don't make something of sucky quality just because you know that everyone here will like it regardless. Make something good."

Some of these docs that have been stated on this thread I WILL rent and watch. The reason for this thread is not to promote amateur hour, but to generate ideas as to concepts, physical input by others, and general feedback. I work on professional shoots (whatever that means), so my intention is to build something good, but to do that you need lots of footage. That and a few ideas that the concept seems to conclude on.... wow that was vague!

Ok, to reiterate, the idea or premise that a couple of you cats have stated already is the general concept of punk appeal. Back in the early 90s and, let's say, punk era a la late 60s to late 70s is the idea of independents making a move on the majors. This would be one common thread of conversation that I would like to have as a question posed to various SFers in the interview stage. The idea of mass market appeal and general exposure that the internet can offer to the average Joe who wants to make a go of it, but doesn't have enough resources to do so is something else to consider. How the face of the world was changed by Y2K. How Napster changed the face of downloading music, maybe even on some level inspired Songfight! Who knows where it leads, but one thing that keeps coming back to mind is Global Village.

The internet has allowed us all to collaborate, bear witness to suck, pushing limits while exposing ourselves. Some of you, including me (well Hip Cola), have created websites that are extending that exposure. The highlights of the doc would be primarily about relationships. Relationships to the world at large, relationships with people you've never met but maybe one day will, and a relationship to yourself after satisfying the need to be a part of something larger than yourself. Community and the face of an ever-expanding, self-destructing world. I think that through these relationships things can be found or atleast the audience might find pieces of a bigger picture. Let's also mention the hilarity of me ever meeting the mighty Blue or Wreckdom ever coming into contact with JoS. JB and Frankie going at it. Man the possibilities are endless. I think the idea, generally, would be to create something filmic and feature like. Then if it goes TV, atleast it's good TV.

As far as the money thing goes, it's not about money, but about exploiting concepts of the independence that the internet has created. What documentary maker ever has any money? None that I know. Michael Moore never intended to get famous nor did the SuperSizeMe guy, so docs have never been about money, atleast to me. Songfight and the community at large is just a vehicle to a bigger concept, but since finding out about SF I have never been more inspired to work through music and push my own limits through in creative capacities as I am currently undertaking. The subject is the community. The end result is relationship based. The questions are about an ever expanding need to be closer and whether that drives a wedge into the need to be independent.

A doc like this could kill this community, but it's fun to know that we could all be part of something bigger. Let's also not forget about the music.

Definite question is to ask strangers or a piece about strangers and their affiliation to some of those artists who SHOULD be way bigger than they are. Son of Supercar, Dylan Nau, CCS, JB, Frankie, etc.......

tonetripper wrote:A doc like this could kill this community

Shoot, why didn't you say so? Now I will chant (feel free to join in)

do... IT... do... IT... do... IT...

It could also enhance it. Why be such a naysayer 1516? Too many lunch burritos?!

15-16 puzzle wrote:

tonetripper wrote:A doc like this could kill this community

Shoot, why didn't you say so? Now I will chant (feel free to join in)

do... IT... do... IT... do... IT...

umm...I dunno what all that means, but I think TT is making an important point, which is that if this documentary takes off and happens, there is serious potential to completely change SongFight! as we know it, if for no other reason than the influx of new Fighters and lookers-on...

That said, as with all things that could go big, it's not a reason to not do it. It'd be like, "Well, I'm not buying a lottery ticket today because I might win. My life would be ruined if I had endless money...".

Tone..I say go for it. The community here is pretty tough, I'd wager it could handle itself if such a thing should happen. After all, we've got Blue!

tonetripper wrote:It could also enhance it. Why be such a naysayer 1516? Too many lunch burritos?!

It's not naysaying, it's a joke. If I want to naysay something, I'll just come out and say it. I will now start another chant (join in if you wish)

nay... SAY... nay... SAY... nay... SAY...

MalachiConstant wrote:I'd be happy to contribute the footage I shot in Austin (with the songfighters' permission of course), and I'd be interested in actually working on it, but as is clear I'm not lightning-fast when I'm doing a pro-bono job and a local editor might be a better idea in your case anyway.

But I know I'll buy it when it comes out.

I'd take you up on that offer and my feeling is that I wouldn't really do it unless there was some form of payment for crew. Pro-bono doesn't make sense. Technicians don't get residuals, but in this case it could be a bartering tool, but it wouldn't be the way I would want to make it go down. It's expensive to bring out a lot of gear. The first thing is to come up with a proposal and pitch it to someone with money. Then it's just a question of organization as I'm sure you are aware of. Any footage from any SF Lives in the past would be welcome with credits given and possibly pay. First things first. Ideas people ideas!!!!! Keep em coming.

What about a movie about a Songfighter who solves crimes in his spare time? Sort of like Murder She Wrote, but with lots of car crashes and explosions and stuff.

tonetripper wrote:Ideas people ideas!!!!! Keep em coming.

Track down as many people as possible who submitted, like, one entry and then vanished, and get their viewpoint as to why they made the song. Clearly, the people who make lots of songs would be making songs anyway, but what makes people make just *one* song for a website? (Duh, to have fun. But explore this theme maybe, if you are going for the whole "lil guy vs. the system" idea.)

Get a bunch of hip indie bands to cover SF songs, and have a soundtrack that consists of 1. SF originals, 2. covers of SF originals by hip indie bands, 3. Originals by hip indie bands, 4. SF members covering the originals of the band that covered them. Get the bands to play the covers in concert and mix footage of the crowds at their shows with a SF Live event, where the same songs are played.

tonetripper wrote:

Hoblit wrote:wait a year

then do it.

I want to start the conversation now and maybe start in the new year. I want to as well submit something to the Canada Arts Council and find a production company who would be bold enough to tackle it and finance it. Start now and by 2006 we could have something to word with. Atleast some kind of development for an SF live where the whole thing closes out.

Narbotic would be an interesting interviewee.

yeah, your timing would be perfect. Go fer it do0d!

tonetripper wrote:The idea that you can gain international fame, not that I'm sure that anyone has on SF

I was at the CD shop the other day and found in the used bin a CD by MC Hawking, with "Science" right on it. How much fame do you need? Ha ha!

Spellbound is awesome. It's amazing how TENSE the whole thing is.

oops, i have to go. i'll catch up to the rest of this thread later.
-bill

HeuristicsInc wrote:Spellbound is awesome. It's amazing how TENSE the whole thing is.

It is an awesome movie. I found it interesting that all they did was follow some of the contestants around to find out what moved them to become great spellers. Not that disimilar when you think about it to the concept that I'm thinking of.

If anyone is interested in being interviewed and followed around, I would like to know who they would be so that I could make some plans. This is just to start working on a proposal for the new year. I would also like to thank anyone of you who are contributing any ideas that seem to stem the positive energy of this. Also thank 1516 for his amazing input. I think he is a prime candidate for an interviewee. What do you say 1516?

And Shite, I think your idea of doing the van thing is uber cool with Ken. I wonder if you would be willing to incorporate your idea into this and submit something on that front when the ball gets rolling. I'm sure it would be a great addition to the vibe of the Deadheads who have altered their following. I'm there with you on that. Kind of like a Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters bus ride cept with SFers.

So far JB, Leaf, Frankie?, Caravan Ray and Johnny are some of the people that seem to have some interest in this. I would love to set up some connections with people in other areas, so that there could be some sort of coordination in the shooting order. I would love to get some time with Starfinger, CCS, Dylan Nau, The Sober Irishman, Glenn Case and Wreckdom to follow around, just to name a few. Spud? Anyone who would like to be bothered for a short period of time please post in this thread or PM me about it. Also need some estrogen, so any ladies willing to be followed please inform as well. Need some balance to the overwhelming number of guys here.

And I also like the idea of the one hit wonders for SF. Although, not sure how it bodes with the overall concept, it would be a nice offset. Cool.

- Pablo

This sounds mad crazy awesome.

I don't think I'm enough of a regular to be followed though. Yay for lurking.

tonetripper wrote:What do you say 1516?

Sure, but for all you know, I'm horrible on camera. Here is a suggestion: lug a camera (or two) with a nice mic down to the next SF Live, and get as many people as you can to stay a day late, or fly in a day early, and get them to sit down for an hour or two for some camera time.

Not that you weren't planning on that anyway, I'm just saying.