Harry Potter Post Mortem Discussion: LOTS OF SPOILERS

[jb]

This is a thread for talking about Harry Potter, after you've finished reading it, so you don't have to constantly warn about spoilers and such.

<h1>DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED READING HARRY POTTER AND THE HALF-BLOOD PRINCE</h1>

[Bjam]

Yeah, the switch from Hogwarts to 'Let's go a-hintin' for some big baddie' seems kinda... eh. Very different. I just hope she can pull it off without some big deus ex machina.

Is it just me that got annoyed by the Voldemort exposition scenes that Dumbledore and Harry went on? They just seemed to drag so long.

The cave door reminded me of the Mines of Moria from Lord of the Rings. Maybe that's just me again.

The opening chapter with the minister and the primeminister reminded me of the scene from X-Men 2. :/

Overall I liked it. It wasn't as good as some others, but I did like it. Lots of thing hinted at for Book 7. I just hope it ends well.

[jb]

I'm pulling for The Redemption of Snape. I really think he's going to turn out to be a hero after all of this.

Did you notice how in both the books where a main character died, there was sort of a sense of disassociating Harry from them? It seemed to me there was a conscious detachment in the prose from both Sirius and Dumbledore, where you don't see a whole lot of them throughout the book and then it turns out that they get killed off.

I did half expect Dumbledore to rise again, like his Phoenix. Why have a Phoenix as his totem if not for that?

I wasn't so pleased with Harry dumping Ginny, although I'm glad she understood. But I think that's kind of bullcrap, even though it's probably just my inner romantic being a curmudgeon.

Anyway, she really really made me want to find out what happens next. Especially with Snape. I almost don't care about Voldemort. Compared to Snape, Voldemort was hardly even in this book, and was certainly not the most compelling "villain". Even Malfoy was somewhat redeemed!

Dumbledore == Aslan?

[Rabid Garfunkel]

One thing bugs me, though...

The last two pages, damnit. Dunno why I've got these trepidations about Rowling changing flavors like that, and heading into the YA boy's adventure novel style. Or at least, that's the way it feels to me, reminiscent of lunchtime readings spent in the junior high school library discovering the good, the bad, and the ugly of "Boy's Adventure Fiction". Or maybe I'm just a thrice-damned sexist when it comes to authors' writing styles and tones. Especially when they start switch-hitting.

[jb]

Yeah I wonder how she's going to make up for the ever-exciting prospect of discovering Harry's new school subjects and the things he learned in class. That's I bet at least half the fun of the books up to now. What will replace that? And will Rowling fall into the classic sci-fi/fantasy series trap of having the last book render her main character into a dour, humorless fellow who is just driven to one purpose and once it's finished you feel like you've had all the happy sucked out of you forever? God I hope not. I'm going to think that she's purposefully going to watch for pitfalls like that.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Agreed. And while we're on the subject of speculation about the next book, any thoughts on the foreshadowing of "being too young to do something", re: Harry's apparating license and the big V's being too young to teach at Hogwarts? My money's on Harry becoming a Dark Arts Defense professor in the epilogue to book 7.

This was a rising action before the denoument, imo.

The redemption of Snape, you say? The forgiveness by Harry (a la Dumbledore), more likely.

AND who the hell is R.A.B.? Seems familiar.

AND will Harry (wind up laboring under the fear for dramatic effect and in-character tension, at least) be the 6th horcrux?

[jb]

The redemption of Snape, you say? The forgiveness by Harry (a la Dumbledore), more likely.

I think she made way too much out of Snape in this book for there to be just a forgiveness sort of thing. Especially with all the unexplained "Why did Dumbledore trust Snape so strongly" and "don't call me a coward" screaming that Snape did. And the obviously vague "please Severus" from Dumbledore.

With so many horcruxes left, and destroying just one of them nearly killed Dumbledore obviously, it seems very plausible to me that there's a lot more to this than meets the eye. If there's nothing more to it, I'm going to be incredibly surprised-- and pissed off.

It seemed to me that throughout these books Snape has been the tool used to harden Harry. If everything went smoothly and easily for him, would he be able to break through into his greatness? Seems like Snape has taken on the burden of being the bad guy, pushing Harry to greatness through tough love.

[Bjam]

AND who the hell is R.A.B.? Seems familiar.

Regulus A. Black? Sirus' brother or something like that?

[Rabid Garfunkel]

I think she made way too much out of Snape in this book for there to be just a forgiveness sort of thing. Especially with all the unexplained "Why did Dumbledore trust Snape so strongly" and "don't call me a coward" screaming that Snape did. And the obviously vague "please Severus" from Dumbledore.

Yes, it was laid on pretty thickly. Almost to the point of blatant misdirection. But while it would/will be quite satisfying to finally know what the absolutely true internal processes and motivations of Snape are/were/will be (the Frodo claiming the Ring at Mount Doom come to mind more for Snape than Harry, strangely), the full story is Harry's, his growth and life experiences and how he changes and deals with it all. My opinion, that. But damn, he is one seriously well fleshed out antagonist. Hats off to that, author.

It seemed to me that throughout these books Snape has been the tool used to harden Harry. If everything went smoothly and easily for him, would he be able to break through into his greatness? Seems like Snape has taken on the burden of being the bad guy, pushing Harry to greatness through tough love.

As in "he shoulda been my son, damnit" sorta way?

With so many horcruxes left, and destroying just one of them nearly killed Dumbledore obviously, it seems very plausible to me that there's a lot more to this than meets the eye. If there's nothing more to it, I'm going to be incredibly surprised-- and pissed off.

Even if it turns out to be a macguffin, still, asks I, why stop at only seven of them? Surely two sevens (or seven sevens? Seventh son of a seventh son, indeed) would be more powerful.

[Egg]

bump..oops.

I really enjoyed this book's ability to foreshadow and depart from the earlier formula JK used. I mean, remember when we cared so much about the House Cup? And in the first book it seemed like we could personally track Gryffindor's exact score for the entirety of the novel. Who cares anymore? The world is falling apart. Some idiots are obsessed with getting their driver's liscences..err..apparition privileges, but those are shallow concerns that we distract ourselves with for very short bursts of time. Like snogging. It looks like people are falling back on it in dark times..or maybe it's just that age.

I liked the pensieve moments that dragged on. I think JK's going into this crazy fall of the wizarding family that's very similar to the fall of the Southern family you see in Modernist American literature. Abusive father, stupid inbred brother, repressed daughter who cannot live up to the images of unbridled purity while retaining femininity. Inbreeding. I wouldn't be surprised to find out Harry is super-closely related to Voldemort.

I want Snape's redemption too! I think that Dumbledore may have ordered something like "kill me" and that's what Snape said he didn't want to do when Hagrid heard them. I think these books are very much about second chances and not jumping to conclusions about people.

I also want Harry to be super tempted by the Dark Arts, and I don't think it's out of the question. I mean, he's used them ... a lot. By the end of the book, he was tossing off unforgiveables like nobody's business which seems like he's turning to the dark side to me. Anger Fear Hatred. Mmmmm. And he's going to need to acquire some massive power to get the other horcuces and take out Voldemort so he's probably going to be really tempted to tap into some bad magic. Maybe use some of the special powers of the Slytherin locket or whatnot when he finds it.

Also: I see a big epic broom fight. They established brooms as the fastest means of transportation when you can't apparate at the end of Half Blood. So I wouldn't be surprised if there was a big battle at a place like Hogwart's where everybody is brooming around and flinging unforgiveables at each other.

Lots of hopes. Even if I'm totally wrong, it's fun to speculate. And she's never disappointed me before, so I will probably enjoy whatever she serves up.

[the Jazz]

I didn't at all mind the pensieve passages, although I feel cheated by that being pretty much the only thing Dumbledore shows Harry in the book before he dies. I mean, sure, there are hints of spectacular cool master wizard stuff, and we sort of get the idea of how Dumbledore's hand got mummified, but she never really goes into it. We don't encounter too much new magic in the sixth book; at least, not on the scale of the previous books. Quidditch is only touched upon; they win a match, lose a match, and then all of a sudden they're playing for the house cup?

So what cool magic does Harry learn? Some shortcuts for potion-making that he probably can't remember without the book. One of Snape's old rip-you-to-shreds curses. The basics of nonverbal spells, a subject which could have been very cool, except that it's given practically no attention, at least not of the type we're used to getting from the previous books. Dumbledore has this intuitive grasp of magic, seemingly without the use of spells at all, and looks to be the only wizard around who can teach Harry the full extent of things he's capable of, and we get nothing before he's killed.

I'm not so sure whether Snape will be redeemed or not, but I am sure that he was on Dumbledore's side throughout the book. For one thing, you just know she wants to mislead you about something like this, to give the next book more punch. For another, Dumbledore is made to be the greatest wizard ever, so nearly perfect that there's no way he could trust Snape completely and be wrong. Dumbledore's "please, Severus" doesn't seem so vague if Snape is on his side. That would mean that Dumbledore knows about the Unbreakable Vow, and is telling Snape that he wants Snape to step in and kill him to save Malfoy from becoming a murderer. The look Harry sees on Snape's face is not hatred of Dumbledore, but anger that he has no choice but to keep his vow and kill Dumbledore, which he doesn't want to do. Dumbledore = Obi-Wan.

I was irritated by the fake-foreshadowing moments of envy that Harry was feeling about Ginny and Dean. They seemed unusually strong to me, as though hinting he was going to flip out at some point, maybe under the influence of some kind of jealousy curse, and try to kill Dean.

I don't know what to expect from the seventh book, but I have to say I don't feel too confident that she'll manage to keep the series from ending up as five great books followed by two disappointments. Sure, I enjoyed book six immensely, but it's not strong enough to stand on its own like the other five, because too much of it depends on the next one and how she wraps things up. Harry needs to find someone to replace Dumbledore in the role of exceptionally powerful wizard with a solid grasp of the big picture, someone who will show him (and us) the really cool stuff we've been waiting for. Hopefully "RAB" is that character.

[Mogosagatai]

I was irritated by the fake-foreshadowing moments of envy that Harry was feeling about Ginny and Dean. They seemed unusually strong to me, as though hinting he was going to flip out at some point, maybe under the influence of some kind of jealousy curse, and try to kill Dean.

What, the "monster rising in his chest" business? That was just a good description of hormonal/love-related impulses. She made it pretty clear that Harry wasn't about to flip out and kill Dean, just that he wanted to in a superficial way that he would never act on.


My initial thought about the seven horcruces was that one of them is in Harry. Voldemort could've put it in him during their very first encounter, as a safeguard in case Harry lived (Voldemort being nervously aware of the prophecy) or perhaps just by accident during the Ava Kedavra. Maybe not, but that sure would be a cool way to tie him to Voldemort even more strongly. And of course, the implication would be that Harry then has to die. I don't know if J.K. would be willing to kill her main character, but that'd be pretty awesome. I'm sure it'll be awesome either way; I've enjoyed these books increasingly.

Also, I'll be surprised if Dumbledore doesn't return in some form or fashion, whether he rises in phoenix fashion or pulls an Obi-Wan with Harry, or whatever. I guess he <i>is</i> in that picture in his office, but that seems to passive a role to play. Again, maybe not.

And yeah, redemption of Snape... I wouldn't even mind if it turned out he really was evil at the end of it all, as long as we're first led to believe that he's excused for all the shit he's done so far. Killing Dumbedore on Dumbledore's orders? Makes sense, if Dumbledore wants to appear dead or to save Malfoy's grace or to rise again more strongly or anything else that this clever author might throw at us.

[HeuristicsInc]

woo, i just finished it today.
interesting the foreshadowing of dumbledore, telling harry not to fear death and all that. anyway need to digest, will write more later.
-bill

[Rabid Garfunkel]

For those of you who've finished book 6, may I reccomend rereading book 2 (Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets). Fucking delicious, it is.

Yes, I do re-read books. Dunno why... just a slave to the subconscious, I guess.

Yum, yum.

[HeuristicsInc]

man, i don't have time to reread books, seeing as i have three shelves of books i bought but didn't read yet. however, i recommend the books on tape versions of the harry potter books, that guy does a good job, except his voice for hermione isn't so hot.
-bill

[Caravan Ray]

Finally got my hands on this book and read it. Pretty good - much better than Phoenix

I'm pulling for The Redemption of Snape. I really think he's going to turn out to be a hero after all of this.

Yes - smart money is on that one. I see Draco seeing the light too and coming good - and Snape, Harry and Draco fighting the bad guys together at the end - shoulder-to-shoulder.

I did half expect Dumbledore to rise again, like his Phoenix. Why have a Phoenix as his totem if not for that?

Or Gandalf after the Balrog - I still wouldn't be surprise to see the Dumb-ster make another appearence later.

I wasn't so pleased with Harry dumping Ginny, although I'm glad she understood. But I think that's kind of bullcrap, even though it's probably just my inner romantic being a curmudgeon.

I bet he shagged her first though. Off topic sort of - did anyone else find the wand inspection bit in the Goblet of Fire hilariously funny. Cederic Diggory had a long, slender 12 inch wand, but Victor Krumm's was only six inches, but short and thick (which does the trick!). I also liked the bit at the begining of the Azkaban movie where Harry is in bed, "giving his wand a polish" under the covers. But I digress....

Dumbledore == Aslan?

More Gandalf than Aslan - I hope anyway, Aslan pissed me off.

Anyway, she really really made me want to find out what happens next.

Totally. Bring it on

[HeuristicsInc]

Finally got my hands on this book and read it. Pretty good - much better than Phoenix

I agree with that, Harry was such a snot in Phoenix. He's a better character in this book
-bill

[Caravan Ray]

and not as much superflous stuff - like what was in Goblet.

My current rankings of the books, based on nothing in particular:

1. Azkaban
2. Half-Blood
3. Philosophers
4. Chamber
5. Goblet
6. Phoenix

[stueym]

Finally got my hands on this book and read it. Pretty good - much better than Phoenix

I agree with that, Harry was such a snot in Phoenix. He's a better character in this book
-bill

Interesting thing is I think she (JKR) does a great job of representing how teenagers actually change so radically during these years she is representing in the books. Anyone who has had teenagers growing up through these years will recognize that they can change character three times in a day never mind from book to book

[HeuristicsInc]

yeah, i know, but i felt like it was overdone.
maybe that's really how teenagers are, i dunno, not having one, but i thought it brought the book down a bit with its over-the-topness on that front.
the "romantic" stuff in both these two books i thought was well-done.
-bill

[ddd]

AND who the hell is R.A.B.? Seems familiar.

Regulus A. Black? Sirus' brother or something like that?

Yeah, it has to be him now.. they've translated the book into tonnes of foreign versions and each translation has the initial changed to the native version of the surname "Black".. bit of a giveaway!

Dumbledore's Not Dead makes some pretty interesting arguments. We'll have to wait and see.

I envision the 7th book like the DaVinci Code or something.. travelling around solving clues leading to the next one, etc. It's gonna be kinda sad saying goodbye after a decade or so of wondering what's next.

*weeps*

[Denyer]

isn't this a kid's book?