Req: Mixing Advice

[Reist]

So I've been getting a fair few comments on my poor mixes in the last few fights, but I just can't seem to get it right. Comments about getting my drums to sound like Melvins, bad guitar tone, etc etc. Can you guys elaborate how I can do this?

[jb]

Please post 2 examples of songs where you received this feedback. Also, if possible, post the source files for these songs in case someone is moved to illustrate their advice.

JB

[Koushirou]

hey i was going to make a thread exactly like this.... i hope its okay if i share it? i got some unfavorable comments on the recording for "ignorance is bliss", and would like some specific advice on what to do in the future.

http://www.songfight.org/music/ignoranc ... se_iib.mp3

thanks....

[Mostess]

If SongFight! has given me anything, it's mixing skills. I've gotten great advice from this thread.

But mostly from doing this. Blue, Bell Green, and Future Boy all reworked my original tracks and light bulbs went on all around me.

It's funny that I really resisted this at first, but the most important rule is less is more. Get the levels and the panning right and you're 98% done. Don't compress things, don't reverb things, don't use flange or chorus unless you have an actual reason to (other than "it sounds cool" or "it covers my icky vocals"). I think the biggest improvement in my mixes came when I decided to only adjust something if I knew where I was going to put it; no more fiddling. That rule stopped me from mucking up my mixes with arbitrary EQ, compression, moving pans, etc.

The other thing I learned from mixing is that the recording is key. If you set your mic up the right way, choose the right room, get your levels well above the noise floor, etc. etc. on recording day, mixing is a breeze.

[Reist]

Please post 2 examples of songs where you received this feedback. Also, if possible, post the source files for these songs in case someone is moved to illustrate their advice.

JB

Alright.

Ignorance is Bliss
Blank Stare
Influential Film

Those are my three most recent ones and they seem to have all gotten similar responses about production. Anyone got advice?

[Caravan Ray]

The only advice I can give is record lots and lots of songs.

I've still got very little idea about what I am doing - but I am definitely getting better. 90% of my improvement I think can be attributed to trial and error.

[deshead]

So I've been getting a fair few comments on my poor mixes in the last few fights, but I just can't seem to get it right. Comments about getting my drums to sound like Melvins, bad guitar tone, etc etc. Can you guys elaborate how I can do this?

Some general comments based on the 3 songs you linked:

I think most of your issues are performance rather than production related. Especially in Ignorance, the timing between all the parts is noticeably off, and that distracts from the song. I suspect that when people address your guitar tone, what they really mean is "your guitar part jumps out at me," and you could improve this fairly simply with tighter timing. The same goes for the drums.

That said:
- Are you recording the guitar line-in, or maybe through a POD? You'd help the tone immediately by mixing in a version of the track that's run through an amp and mic'd. If you think you can get the timing right, your guitar tracks will also sound a lot thicker if you double them (by overdubbing a second, distinct copy of the track.)

- The kick drum in all 3 tracks needs to come way up. Your drum tracks are all high-hat and snare, where the songs themselves basically demand a punchy kick on the 1- and 3.

- It's obvious that you're using a drum machine. That's not a bad thing in itself, but for drums that sound like Melvin's you'll need to put a lot more time into programming the drum tracks. The 3 main tell-tales of a drum machine are:

1. Robotic high hat and ride: Live drummers don't play perfect 8th and 16th notes, all at the same volume, on the cymbals.
2. Consistent snare tone: Every stickfall on a real snare sounds different, in tone and in volume. If your drum machine doesn't support multi-positional samples, at least vary the volume a little on each hit.
3. Drum fills: It's really hard to make a drum machine play an organic fill. Frankly, I'd avoid drum fills altogether, and just use the toms and crash for accents.

- Your vocals are uneven, and specifically too loud in places (the first "and I hate" in each chorus of Blank Stare is a good example.) It's rock, so the priorites in your mix should be, in order:

• drums
  bass
  vocals
  guitars
  everything else

If your guitars drown out the vocals, or anything drowns out the bass or drums (which happens in Blank Stare after the 2nd chorus,) you've got problems.

In straight-up rock like you're recording, the most important element is the snare drum, with the kick drum a close second. (And that sentence is probably the most controversial in this post ) Killer guitar-crunching and vocal-wailing is just noise, in a rock song, if there's no back beat. So make sure the drums can always be heard.

- Finally, all these mixes would benefit from some compression on the individual tracks. The vocals especially, but even your guitar parts have some spikey bits that would smooth out nicely with gentle compression.

[Caravan Ray]

Thats awesome Des - I'm actually going to try and read and understand your post - some of it is actually making sense to me!

[roymond]

Des posted some great stuff right there, but the links in Mostess' post are gold.

As for better drum parts: use drum machines to create crisp basic beats, then layer more organic sample-based loops and fills. This maintains the rock while creating interest and variation. Then go in and edit the basic beats to emphasize certain phrases in the song (add/remove snare/kick/hi-hat) and certainly play with the velocity on all of them. As Des mentioned, if you listen closely to real drum parts, its a combination of phrasing and miss-hits that create an organic sound.

[Kill Me Sarah]

- It's obvious that you're using a drum machine. That's not a bad thing in itself, but for drums that sound like Melvin's you'll need to put a lot more time into programming the drum tracks. The 3 main tell-tales of a drum machine are:

1. Robotic high hat and ride: Live drummers don't play perfect 8th and 16th notes, all at the same volume, on the cymbals.
2. Consistent snare tone: Every stickfall on a real snare sounds different, in tone and in volume. If your drum machine doesn't support multi-positional samples, at least vary the volume a little on each hit.

I noticed that Fruity Loops has these little bars where you can adjust the velocity or each beat/quarter note. I've played around w/ them a bit and not really been able to notice what it does. Can anyone explain?

[deshead]

Here's a good list from SOS: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct99/a ... 20tips.htm

Things to consider when programming drums.

[Lunkhead]

That article is awesome. Des, do you (or anybody out there) have any recommendations for drum VSTis, for those of us poor bastards who have to use such things?

[roymond]

I noticed that Fruity Loops has these little bars where you can adjust the velocity or each beat/quarter note. I've played around w/ them a bit and not really been able to notice what it does. Can anyone explain?

Note velocity determines how loud a sound is played, but it also affects other aspects of the sound as well. This depends on the quality of the samples and the way they are set up in your sample player.

For instance, some layered samples will play a clean snare sound when given a moderate velocity (attack strength), but introduce rim noise or vibration sounds when triggered by higher velocities. These are actually other samples that only appear as if a drummer were hitting the snare very hard.

On piano, higher velocities may introduce actual hammer sounds, like what you'd hear from a real piano when you wail on the keyboard. Similarly, trumpet samples may break and crack notes instead of simply sound smooth. Or accustic bass notes will slap and vibrate against the neck instead of just sound like smooth notes played louder.

[jb]

<b>Velocity in MIDI</b>

Velocity is a measurement of how fast a key was pressed on a keyboard. Think about it-- the harder you hit a key, the faster it is moving downward. It's hard to tell by looking at it, but the computer can measure that velocity very precisely.

In most cases, the faster the key goes down, the louder the sound should be played. This is analogous to a traditional piano-- to make a note play louder what you're actually doing is making the little hammer that strikes the piano string move faster, thus hitting the string harder, and making a louder note. Thus velocity in MIDI often means "how loud should the note be".

Since MIDI is used on computers, people making MIDI instruments have come up with ingenious ways of using the "velocity" aspect of notes you play. Some MIDI programs may play completely different instruments when you press a key at a certain velocity. Or stack instruments on top of each other. Tap lightly, you get a simple hi-hat sound. Tap harder (increasing the "velocity") and a kick drum is added.

There are more variations, but that's it in a nutshell.

FruityLoops lets you adjust the velocity of each note so that you can make the playing sound subtly more human. There's even a "humanize" option in the settings somewhere that will change the velocities for you.

You can also use those velocity bars to produce accents-- ONE two THREE four and so on. It's not easy to hear unless you really move those bars up or down-- a wide discrepancy from one beat to the next is most audible. Otherwise you're talking subtleties.

HTH,

JB

[starfinger]

That article is awesome. Des, do you (or anybody out there) have any recommendations for drum VSTis, for those of us poor bastards who have to use such things?

battery 2 has some really nice acoustic kits -- multi-mic and multi-stick ones
I find them very realistic and flexible

-craig

[Kill Me Sarah]

Roymond, JB and Des

Thank you guys! I think (hope) putting this knowledge to use is really going to improve my sound.

I was wondering if anyone would care to expound a bit on how to make up for the lack of being able to add realistic fills. I've been painfully aware of my inability to add fills recently. I'd like to at least be able to get some added variety and flavor from my drum tracks and avoid the inevitable "you need more drum changes" critiques each week.

[roymond]

I'd like to at least be able to get some added variety and flavor from my drum tracks and avoid the inevitable "you need more drum changes" critiques each week.

To add to my first post in this thread, use sample loops from the same "family" so that the drums all sound the same, yet the patterns change. Then (this is just an example) use the soft pattern for the intro, the straight-forward pattern for the verse, and the rocking one for the chorus. You can then add MIDI cymbals and sample fills to help the transitions.

[Kill Me Sarah]

To add to my first post in this thread, use sample loops from the same "family" so that the drums all sound the same, yet the patterns change. Then (this is just an example) use the soft pattern for the intro, the straight-forward pattern for the verse, and the rocking one for the chorus. You can then add MIDI cymbals and sample fills to help the transitions.

Okay, I'm a little unclear on what you mean by loops. I mean, I know what a loop is obviously, but do you mean dropping in pre-programmed loops from a library, or do you mean creating your own loops, or do you mean either/or?

Also, in FL there is a "Swing" bar you can increase/decrease. Is this also used for varying otherwise static sounds? It's another I've played w/ but not noticed differences from.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

If I remember correctly, "swing" changes static 8ths (for example) from 1+2+3+4+ to a degree closer to 1a2a3a4a, depending on the value of swing you apply. Like more traditional jazz (or "swing") tunes. See also any Steve (Ross?) Durand tune for examples of swing.

As for drum fills, well, listen to everything and hear how that drummer (or programmer) is tying one phrase to the next. On a Keith Moon (The Who) kick, myself. Him and Blue, heh.

[Kill Me Sarah]

Okay, I read that article des posted (awesome) and it equates "swing" with syncopation, which if Google definitions serves me, means "displacing 'expected' beats by anticipation or delay of one-half a beat". It seems then that if I could master use of this tool I would probably be on my way to better fills, and a generally more organic feel. Does anyone use this feature?

Also, could anyone point out any SF-er or track that effectively makes use of a sequencer to make organic sounding drums/fills?

[roymond]

To add to my first post in this thread, use sample loops from the same "family" so that the drums all sound the same, yet the patterns change. Then (this is just an example) use the soft pattern for the intro, the straight-forward pattern for the verse, and the rocking one for the chorus. You can then add MIDI cymbals and sample fills to help the transitions.

Okay, I'm a little unclear on what you mean by loops. I mean, I know what a loop is obviously, but do you mean dropping in pre-programmed loops from a library, or do you mean creating your own loops, or do you mean either/or?

I use sampled loops (like these), which are recordings of actual drummers playing...drums. Typically 1, 4, 8 or 16 bars in length, these can then be repeated to fill out a song section (verse, chorus, break, etc.). On another track(s) I program MIDI parts that trigger drum samples (kick, snare, cymbals) (like these) to help emphasize the beat, create fills, and provide more varied transitions.

I don't worry about programming fills, but I used to program entire drum tracks from scratch and I simply don't have dozens of hours to do that any more. Would enjoy learning about tools that help this, though

[Sick and Wrong]

Try slowing down the tempo to 1/4 speed when recording the fill, and then do it, say, 8 times. Cut out the best take and paste it where it needs to go (at normal speed). As you get better doing fills this way, you can incementally increase the speed at which you record them, and soon you'll be doing them at normal speed.
If you can edit individual bad hits into the position or velocity you want, this can really help, too.
This works with Battery; I don't know about FL.