Drums: How do I do it?

himynameisntmark · Post by **himynameisntmark** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:57 pm

I play bass, I can kinda sing and I'm learning guitar which means I'll probably be recording soon. I really like songs with drums, though. They just add a certain je ne sais quoi. I don't own a drumset and I really can't afford one right now so I'm wondering if there's a decent program or drum machine that I can use to record the drum tracks?

Billy's Little Trip · Post by **Billy's Little Trip** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:33 pm

This is a long thread, but in it, there have been many free drum down loads mentioned as well as a ton of other great free D/Ls for FX, studio equipment, synths, etc. Here >> http://songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.p ... &sk=t&sd=a

As far as good programs that aren't free, BFD is a great drum program.

As far as machines that sound great and easy to use. Look for an old Alesis HR16. You can find them for under 50 bux. Aside from my guitar, the HR16 was my most important writing tool for many years.

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:28 pm

I'd recommend Hammerhead, but it sounds like crap (especially without the free, easy to use, less terrible sounding user banks). And I can't give much advice past there, because until I started using real drums, Hammerhead was all I used.

himynameisntmark · Post by **himynameisntmark** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:55 pm

I will definitely be going through that thread and checking stuff out. Thanks!

Andrew, I already tried Hammerhead. On your advice. It did sound like crap which is why I'm asking about other programs. But thank you, too.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:18 am

I don't know if this got mentioned in that other thread, but I use Guru (actually this is made by the same people as BLT's BFD). I like the layout for Guru.
-bill

nyjm · Post by **nyjm** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:14 pm

Hammerhead has it uses (it does techno alright) and is very user-friendly for beginners.

I use leafDrums, which is entirely free (though I heartily recommend supporting the programmer with a measly $30 for an awesome piece of software.)

leafDrums' major limitation is the initial sound files; they're quite weak/processed. However, the same website has a good list of places to expand your library. I prefer Natural Drum Kit, but that's largely because I got lucky and snagged the library while it was free - and not $130.

Billy's Little Trip · Post by **Billy's Little Trip** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:57 pm

Oh yeah, Leaf Drums. That's the one I was trying to think of. Someone turned me onto that a long time ago here at SF. I played with it and it's very easy to use.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:10 pm

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Oh yeah, Leaf Drums. That's the one I was trying to think of. Someone turned me onto that a long time ago here at SF. I played with it and it's very easy to use.

I don't know if I can take credit for that but I've been giving good reviews to that program ever since I found it. I still use it for that matter. I'm trying to get good enough at the drums to record THOSE from now on, although I'm not sure if I'm there yet.

JonPorobil · Post by **JonPorobil** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:59 am

nyjm wrote:Hammerhead has it uses (it does techno alright) and is very user-friendly for beginners.

I use leafDrums, which is entirely free (though I heartily recommend supporting the programmer with a measly $30 for an awesome piece of software.)

leafDrums' major limitation is the initial sound files; they're quite weak/processed. However, the same website has a good list of places to expand your library. I prefer Natural Drum Kit, but that's largely because I got lucky and snagged the library while it was free - and not $130.

Wow, $130 for the Natural Drum Kit? Last time I was at that site, the guy had all this writing about how he was proud to be offering the sound files as freeware, so that anyone could use them. My, how times change.

I downloaded the Natural Kit back then for free, as well, but that was two computers ago.

LeafDrums looks really cool, though. Thanks for the rec.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:52 pm

Generic wrote:
nyjm wrote:Hammerhead has it uses (it does techno alright) and is very user-friendly for beginners.

I use leafDrums, which is entirely free (though I heartily recommend supporting the programmer with a measly $30 for an awesome piece of software.)

leafDrums' major limitation is the initial sound files; they're quite weak/processed. However, the same website has a good list of places to expand your library. I prefer Natural Drum Kit, but that's largely because I got lucky and snagged the library while it was free - and not $130.
Wow, $130 for the Natural Drum Kit? Last time I was at that site, the guy had all this writing about how he was proud to be offering the sound files as freeware, so that anyone could use them. My, how times change.

I downloaded the Natural Kit back then for free, as well, but that was two computers ago.

LeafDrums looks really cool, though. Thanks for the rec.

Did you copy and paste that? It seems I read that almost word for word somewhere else.

And I had replied that i might upload that original NSKit at some point but then completely forgot. I doubt that its the one he's selling NOW because I can't see him getting that much for it. What I've got is still pretty nice...if I still have it and those samples work GREAT with leaf drums if you organize the folders pretty good.

nyjm · Post by **nyjm** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:58 pm

Generic wrote:Wow, $130 for the Natural Drum Kit?

http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/

It appears that the guy who originally created the library sold it off.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:44 pm

nyjm wrote:
Generic wrote:Wow, $130 for the Natural Drum Kit?
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/

It appears that the guy who originally created the library sold it off.

I wonder what this means to anybody who downloaded it for free and got permission from him to use them commercially as long as he got credit for the drums?

Means its probably all null and void and I won't be able to use his samples commercially anymore.

More reason to get better at the drums.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:01 am

Your use of the kit should still be governed by the agreement that was in place when you downloaded it, so go ahead and use it. If Michael Jackson buys the Beatles catalog, he can't tell everybody that bought a record years ago that they have to pay him more money to keep listening to it (unless records have DRM now).
-bill

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:18 am

HeuristicsInc wrote:Your use of the kit should still be governed by the agreement that was in place when you downloaded it, so go ahead and use it. If Michael Jackson buys the Beatles catalog, he can't tell everybody that bought a record years ago that they have to pay him more money to keep listening to it (unless records have DRM now).
-bill

Well, I had no plans to NOT use them. However, it was an 'email' contract and I certainly don't have a record of it. It shouldn't really be a problem, its not like they'd hear it anyways. It would be a long shot for them to somehow bump into any of its use. That and it would be hard to prove it was their samples anyways.

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:56 pm

Hoblit wrote:That and it would be hard to prove it was their samples anyways.

Well except for your now very public admission of it.

But Hoblit on another note, you said you're still working on getting your drum playing to an acceptable level. Here's a little trick that's helped me. I can keep everything together pretty well until it comes to the kick drum, for whatever reason that always seems to trip me up. I'll lag a millisecond (or a lot more) behind at times and ruin an otherwise decent track. If that happens to you or anyone else, try just playing the track without the kick at all, and then just go back and add it after the fact. In fact I've gone back and just put it in by hand with a drum machine or keyboard to simplify it even more.

Billy's Little Trip · Post by **Billy's Little Trip** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:51 pm

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:[
Well except for your now very public admission of it.

No one watches this channel.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:43 am

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:
Hoblit wrote:That and it would be hard to prove it was their samples anyways.
Well except for your now very public admission of it.

But Hoblit on another note, you said you're still working on getting your drum playing to an acceptable level. Here's a little trick that's helped me. I can keep everything together pretty well until it comes to the kick drum, for whatever reason that always seems to trip me up. I'll lag a millisecond (or a lot more) behind at times and ruin an otherwise decent track. If that happens to you or anyone else, try just playing the track without the kick at all, and then just go back and add it after the fact. In fact I've gone back and just put it in by hand with a drum machine or keyboard to simplify it even more.

There is no admission, I didn't reveal where the samples have been used commercially.

As far as the drumming advice, thanks but no thanks. If I'm in a pinch and I need to record a drum track that isn't ready, MAYBE I'll go that route. My goal is to be able to play the drums through a full set with other musicians in a live setting.

mrbeany · Post by **mrbeany** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:08 pm

Hoblit wrote:
nyjm wrote:
Generic wrote:Wow, $130 for the Natural Drum Kit?
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/

It appears that the guy who originally created the library sold it off.
I wonder what this means to anybody who downloaded it for free and got permission from him to use them commercially as long as he got credit for the drums?

Means its probably all null and void and I won't be able to use his samples commercially anymore.

More reason to get better at the drums.

That's not the way software licenses work. They can change the license, but it is hard to retroactively change the license unless it is explicitly listed as an option in the EULA.

More than likely, if you have the version that was free, and you got permission to use it commercially, then those are the conditions that still apply.

You can't upgrade it, but if you stay with the version released with that license you should be fine.

You can check the EULA to be sure, but I've *never* seen an EULA that allows for a license to be retroactively changed. I have seen many cases where "Version 2" uses an entirely different license. I've even seen cases where Version 1.1 is the same as version 1.0, except with a different license.

mrbeany · Post by **mrbeany** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:17 pm

Hoblit wrote:Well, I had no plans to NOT use them. However, it was an 'email' contract and I certainly don't have a record of it. It shouldn't really be a problem, its not like they'd hear it anyways. It would be a long shot for them to somehow bump into any of its use. That and it would be hard to prove it was their samples anyways.

There's a trick called "audio watermarking". It can be hard to do without leaving audible goo in the sample or having the goo not be usable once it is mixed in to another song, but it is a technology in high demand, so people continue to do research on it.

However, it is unlikely that a guy giving it away for free would have incorporated this... unless he had a separate interest in audio watermarking...

The idea is that you modify the sound enough that nothing strange can be heard, but if you process it a certain way you can pull data from it. Typically it would need the original sample for comparison, and the original sample would be kept secret.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:52 am

mrbeany wrote:
Hoblit wrote:Well, I had no plans to NOT use them. However, it was an 'email' contract and I certainly don't have a record of it. It shouldn't really be a problem, its not like they'd hear it anyways. It would be a long shot for them to somehow bump into any of its use. That and it would be hard to prove it was their samples anyways.
There's a trick called "audio watermarking". It can be hard to do without leaving audible goo in the sample or having the goo not be usable once it is mixed in to another song, but it is a technology in high demand, so people continue to do research on it.

However, it is unlikely that a guy giving it away for free would have incorporated this... unless he had a separate interest in audio watermarking...

The idea is that you modify the sound enough that nothing strange can be heard, but if you process it a certain way you can pull data from it. Typically it would need the original sample for comparison, and the original sample would be kept secret.

Necrothreading. You sick sick person.

I was never really all that worried about this but that's still some neat technology. I know that data has been watermarked for years but actual processing that can be taken from an analog source IS impressive. A lot of that type of technology is could be developed for all kinds of things. (My head IMMEDIATELY goes military on this one)

mrbeany · Post by **mrbeany** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:27 pm

Hoblit wrote: Necrothreading. You sick sick person.

I was never really all that worried about this but that's still some neat technology. I know that data has been watermarked for years but actual processing that can be taken from an analog source IS impressive. A lot of that type of technology is could be developed for all kinds of things. (My head IMMEDIATELY goes military on this one)

Oh, like embedding messages in things? (There's another name for this, which I'm forgetting...) That tends to be a lot easier to do with images than with sounds. With the common practice of processing and dithering images to accidentally produce slightly grainy effects, you can actually use the grainy aspect of the image to hold data. If you just use the lowest bits on a 24-bit photo it can be next to impossible for the human eye to detect. However there is also technology to manipulate bits on JPEG photos ever so slightly so as to embed lossless messages in them with only a slight loss in image quality.

With audio you're pretty much stuck with watermarking. These can be fairly lossy for the data you're using. The data almost has to be rather short.

However, with any sort of decent audio watermarking it would be possible for, say, the RIAA to require companies selling DRM-free music to use pipe the file through a filter before it is downloaded. The downloaded song could then have an audio watermark that could be used to map it back to the service provider and internal account ID. This would mean it would be possible to go directly after the person that started sharing the music. If they're not doing this now, it is something you know they want to do.

Much easier would be to use differing watermarks for different presses of a particular CD. Even differing watermarks for differing regions of the same country are possible. It all depends on the level of paranoia, and I think the RIAA is willing to throw a lot of money at their paranoia...

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:56 pm

mrbeany wrote: Oh, like embedding messages in things? (There's another name for this, which I'm forgetting...)

Steganography.
-bill

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