Voter Rights

[JonPorobil]

I heard this on the radio, and it was surprisingly difficult for me to find an online source verifying it. Finally found it here, but nowhere bigger or more reputable. It makes me sick to my stomach, and I can't figure out why this story hasn't broken in bigger sources yet.

Marge Tartaglione, voting commissioner in the city of Philadelphia, at a hearing with regards to voting problems in that city during the 2008 Presidential Primary, was asked to respond to a comment made by her deputy commissioner. The comment was: "A long line isn't justification for anything but waiting."

Her response was: "Did you see yet, people waiting for baseball tickets all night long outside? Did you see the line that they wanted the new iPod? They all waited overnight, waited in line. Do you go to the supermarket, you see people waiting in line? Oh, they complain, they grumble, some of them. Some of them they just talk. So what is the difference?"

Citizen: "I'm sorry, are you comparing voters who possibly have to work during the day to people who are standing in line to get a iPod or a Phillies ticket?"

Tartaglione: "It's the same people! Same people! Same people! Come on, you're mixing apples with... sit down!"

(transcription is mine, because evidently there is no other written transcription of this exchange online)

I feel it's pretty self-evident that there's an enormous gap between buying baseball tickets or a new iPhone and voting for the next generation of leaders and lawmakers for our country. The former is frivolous and optional. The latter is a civic duty.

Anyone else heard any similar horror stories?

[fluffy]

Citizen: "I'm sorry, are you comparing voters who possibly have to work during the day to people who are standing in line to get a iPod or a Phillies ticket?"

Tartaglione: "It's the same people! Same people! Same people! Come on, you're mixing apples with... sit down!"

Huh. And here I thought it was Tartaglione who was mixing apples and oranges to make an extremely spurious comparison.

[Hoblit]

Citizen: "I'm sorry, are you comparing voters who possibly have to work during the day to people who are standing in line to get a iPod or a Phillies ticket?"


I feel it's pretty self-evident that there's an enormous gap between buying baseball tickets or a new iPhone and voting for the next generation of leaders and lawmakers for our country. The former is frivolous and optional. The latter is a civic duty.

Anyone else heard any similar horror stories?

I disagree with you. I do not think there is a self evident leap between the comparisons. Like it or not, just because one is a civic duty does not mean it can't have similarities to things that YOU FIND trivial. Phillies' tickets might not be important to you just as (today's) politics might not be considered important by a particular Phillies' fan. Some people feel that politics are a sham (and I can totally understand that) and feel that standing in line for a communication device has more merit.

Sure, I would like EVERYTHING to be more convenient, but when its not... I chose whether or not its worth it. I just happen to think standing in line for voting is one of those things. Phillies' tickets, not so much. But that's just me. Just me.

I spent $600 for two NFL playoff tickets some years ago. Should that money have been better spent? Should I have donated it to a cause with more merit? (Probably, but I'm just making a point) Perhaps I should have given it to a government social program because its "self-evident" that I wasted the money on something trivial.

We as people have to stand in lines. That's life.

[JonPorobil]

We as people have to stand in lines. That's life.

Are you serious? Because if you're serious, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing a more fleshed-out argument.

I'm not talking about a twenty-minute grocery line where someone snuck eleven items into the express aisle. I'm talking about people waiting three to nine hours in Pennsylvania to decide on the next leaders of their districts, state, and our country. And that's three to nine hours that some of these people can't spare.

Now, I'm not saying that, if baseball is your thing, you shouldn't wait in line overnight for good tickets. That's your perogative. But elections! The right to vote! It's what this country is based on! The ability to change the course of government - and in some cases, to oust a government that's trying to screw you out of a chance to vote!

Poll taxes were abolished a long time ago because it was unfair - everyone should be able to vote, but some people couldn't afford to. Why, then, is it reasonable to expect people with hourly-wage jobs to wait three to nine hours in line (if they're lucky enough to have an employer who gives them time off to vote in the first place)? If I'd had to wait in line to vote for four hours when I could have been working, it might have been the difference between paying rent out of real money or building up more debt.

A lot of people don't even have that choice, and they don't make as much money as I do.

I guess it depends on how frivolous you think voting is. I think that if you're in dire enough straits that you actually can't afford to wait in line that long to vote, then you probably don't find it frivolous at all. It might even be a matter of life and death in a way that a new iPhone can never be.

[Hoblit]

1. Are you serious?
2. Because if you're serious, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing a more fleshed-out argument.
3. The right to vote! It's what this country is based on! The ability to change the course of government -
4. ...and in some cases, to oust a government that's trying to screw you out of a chance to vote!
5. Poll taxes were abolished a long time ago because it was unfair - some people couldn't afford to vote.
6. If poll taxes are unfair, then why is it reasonable to expect people to wait three to nine hours in line when they have hourly-wage jobs (if they're lucky enough to have an employer who gives them time off to vote in the first place)?
7. I guess it depends on how frivolous you think voting is.

1. Yes

2. I don't want to get all into this over and over like when Sober calls me out on my opinions over and over.

3. Nobody is talking about taking that right away. We're talking purely about convenience here.

4. That's either a bold accusation or at the very least an arguable one. Every U.S.A. citizen, 18 or older can vote with the exception of convicted felons. Its your own responsibility to register. Problems with registration are convoluted but usually boil down to illegal practices in which the government slams its fist down on.

5. Correct, they we're unfair and that's why they were abolished. We're talking purely about convenience here.

6. I'll let spud answer this one:

There are long lines because voting turnout has historically been low. As recently as 1996, it was below 50%. Surely, you are not expecting the government to waste money by gearing up for 100% turnout, wasting time, money, and resources when it isn't going to happen. 26 million more people votes yesterday than did in 2004. I for one, want to see a trend before we start buying more hardware. Until then, I'll be glad to stand in line to have my chance to participate. Fortunately, the line at my polling place was short. I have waited longer for coffee.

Polls are open for several hours on November 4th, you should be able to find time to get your vote in. If this is going to be a problem, most states have early voting, absentee / Mail ballots. Again, this is just a matter of convenience. I ain't arguin' that its perfect or nuthin'.

7. OR, how IMPORTANT you think voting is.

[JonPorobil]

6. I'll let spud answer this one:

There are long lines because voting turnout has historically been low. As recently as 1996, it was below 50%. Surely, you are not expecting the government to waste money by gearing up for 100% turnout, wasting time, money, and resources when it isn't going to happen. 26 million more people votes yesterday than did in 2004. I for one, want to see a trend before we start buying more hardware. Until then, I'll be glad to stand in line to have my chance to participate. Fortunately, the line at my polling place was short. I have waited longer for coffee.

Ah yes, but Marge Tartaglione was presented with evidence that both voter registration and voter turnout (from the primary) was on the rise, which she didn't deny. She knew that there would be more voters than usual, but made a vehement point about specificaly not making extra accomodations for them.

Look I understand that you don't want to be bullied anymore, and I was starting to get upset at Sober, myself, when he got really agressive with you. However, I'd really like to understand the perspective of someone who thinks that voting is on the same level of importance as baseball tickets and electronic devices.

In 2004, I was in Ohio. The last vote in the country was cast in my precint, at about 4 AM local time. The person who cast it had been waiting in line for sixteen hours. That's not an exaggeration. Sixteen hours. Are you really okay with sixteen-hour waits?

There were people in neighboring precints who were faced with similar wait times, but had to choose between voting and showing up for work. Many of them chose to go to work rather than wait in line. They made that choice not because voting wasn't important to them, but because they couldn't afford not to go to work. They made that choice because it wasn't really a choice at all. Are you really okay with forcing people to choose between their own livelihood and their right to vote?

Most of my friends waited six to ten hours in line because they were privelidged enough to have a choice in the matter. They were liberal arts students who didn't count on paychecks to survive, and whose professors cared enough to cancel classes (and in a couple of cases, exams) to accomodate a process that was never supposed to take more than an hour to complete.

So I'm sorry if this is tantamount to Sober's "Why are you voting for Bob Barr" thread, but these are the people who, if they'd been given the chance to vote, might have turned Ohio blue in 2004 and changed the political course of the country in which we all live. Are you really okay with putting that on the same level as a baseball game?

[erik]

I'm not bullying you, I'm asking that you explain yourself. Here is the question: How does it benefit America to have voting be unnecessarily inconvenient?

It's stupid to make it hard for people to vote. Not everyone has 3 spare hours to spend in line. Not every county has early voting. Some people have to try and cram in voting either before or after work, and if you have more than one job, or kids, or whatever, it makes it hard. And that's bullshit.

If someone can't get an iPod the first day, they can get it late. If someone can't wait in line to get football tickets, they can call a scalper. If someone can't vote, they can never, ever, ever, ever EVER get that back.

[Hoblit]

6. I'll let spud answer this one:

There are long lines because voting turnout has historically been low. As recently as 1996, it was below 50%. Surely, you are not expecting the government to waste money by gearing up for 100% turnout, wasting time, money, and resources when it isn't going to happen. 26 million more people votes yesterday than did in 2004. I for one, want to see a trend before we start buying more hardware. Until then, I'll be glad to stand in line to have my chance to participate. Fortunately, the line at my polling place was short. I have waited longer for coffee.

Ah yes, but Marge Tartaglione was presented with evidence that both voter registration and voter turnout (from the primary) was on the rise, which she didn't deny. She knew that there would be more voters than usual, but made a vehement point about specificaly not making extra accomodations for them.

In 2004, I was in Ohio. The last vote in the country was cast in my precint, at about 4 AM local time. The person who cast it had been waiting in line for sixteen hours. That's not an exaggeration. Sixteen hours. Are you really okay with sixteen-hour waits?

There were people in neighboring precints who were faced with similar wait times, but had to choose between voting and showing up for work. Many of them chose to go to work rather than wait in line. They made that choice not because voting wasn't important to them, but because they couldn't afford not to go to work. They made that choice because it wasn't really a choice at all. Are you really okay with forcing people to choose between their own livelihood and their right to vote?

Most of my friends waited six to ten hours in line because they were privelidged enough to have a choice in the matter. They were liberal arts students who didn't count on paychecks to survive, and whose professors cared enough to cancel classes (and in a couple of cases, exams) to accomodate a process that was never supposed to take more than an hour to complete.

So I'm sorry if this is tantamount to Sober's "Why are you voting for Bob Barr" thread, but these are the people who, if they'd been given the chance to vote, might have turned Ohio blue in 2004 and changed the political course of the country in which we all live. Are you really okay with putting that on the same level as a baseball game?

Nah, I certainly don't take this as the same thing as my recent discussions with Sober, I was openly stating that I don't want it to start turning that way. (Mostly a response to the 'are you serious?' connotation.)

*I* think that voting is very important and I probably wouldn't wait in line for more than 4 hours for a sporting event ticket. I'm just saying that I disagree and that to me its not all that much different. Especially for other people. So I suppose the short answer is 'yes' I do believe it is on the same level as baseball tickets. But there is a LONG answer when you start detailing it out.

Also, 16 hour waits are not amongst the normal waiting times if they aren't necessarily isolated incidents either. I agree, where there are 16 hour waits there should definitely be changes made to those precincts. If you have to wait 3 hours, then I'm not going to feel all that bad about it. I was lucky that I only had to wait an hour and some change. But I choose to live somewhere that is both large and small at the same time. That's a big word in this conversation as well, choose.

I live paycheck to paycheck and I can't exactly afford to miss time off of work either. However, I'd rather miss a few hours of work and vote than not. I'm also very lucky that I work in an office that would allow me to do that. We worked it out so half of us would go in the morning and the other half would leave work early. Key words here are 'worked it out'.

I'm not even suggesting that everybody has these options, but what I am suggesting is that between all of these options and the (relative) few incidents you describe, its a convenience matter. As people and citizens of the United States of America, we have to deal with these matters on whichever level its on. Waiting in line is something we have to deal with.

So, uh... (tongue firmly in cheek) DEAL WITH IT!

[Hoblit]

1. I'm not bullying you, I'm asking that you explain yourself. Here is the question: How does it benefit America to have voting be unnecessarily inconvenient?

2. It's stupid to make it hard for people to vote. Not everyone has 3 spare hours to spend in line. Not every county has early voting. Some people have to try and cram in voting either before or after work, and if you have more than one job, or kids, or whatever, it makes it hard. And that's bullshit.

3. If someone can't get an iPod the first day, they can get it late. If someone can't wait in line to get football tickets, they can call a scalper. If someone can't vote, they can never, ever, ever, ever EVER get that back.

1. Your qualifier implies that its inconvenient for a purpose. I disagree with that alone. There are variables involved that make it inconvenient. We've already talked about some of them.

2. Again, that's all a matter of personal responsibility combined with whatever options your county DOES offer. You know you're going to vote but you have no early voting, have kids... etc...? Make plans well in advance to make it happen. Get the day off from work 6 months in advance, or take a half day...get a baby sitter... all of those things can be addressed even if they aren't the most convenient options. Utilize whatever research you do on your situation. I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement, and I too would like to see that happen, but there is plenty of room for personal responsibility relative to your determination to vote.

3. Its really hard ((nearly impossible)) to get NFL playoff tickets when they are sold out. Scalper or no. Your qualifier here implies that a particular person can't vote. They can vote, they just can't miss the opportunity. You're right, you miss the opportunity to purchase an I-Pod or baseball ticket, you get a second chance. This is why its important that you don't miss the opportunity to vote. However, you (generally) have four years to prepare for it.

[Spud]

I will now argue the other side of the coin.

Many rock promoters sell tickets the way that they do in order to make it easier to get the right people to show up at their concerts. These people are the people who can afford to stand in line because they have more time than money. Young people, the true fans, etc.

Having long lines for voting serves the same function, either purposefully or not. In addition to those who really, really care, you get the people who can afford to spend the time in line. The young, the unemployed, etc. Clearly, this is unbalanced. However, since it does benefit someone, there is a chance that it is planned.

SPUD

[fluffy]

4. That's either a bold accusation or at the very least an arguable one. Every U.S.A. citizen, 18 or older can vote with the exception of convicted felons. Its your own responsibility to register. Problems with registration are convoluted but usually boil down to illegal practices in which the government slams its fist down on.

Diebold.

[Hoblit]

4. That's either a bold accusation or at the very least an arguable one. Every U.S.A. citizen, 18 or older can vote with the exception of convicted felons. Its your own responsibility to register. Problems with registration are convoluted but usually boil down to illegal practices in which the government slams its fist down on.

Diebold.

And here I would say that if an election is fixed...it doesn't matter how convenient it is for any particular person to vote on so many levels.

[JonPorobil]

Well, Hoblit, I think we've found some common ground, and the area where we disagree. We both agree that 16 hours is too long. I happen to think that 3 hours is too long. You find it acceptable. (For the record, I personally think one hour is pretty much the longest anyone in this country ought to wait to cast a ballot.)

What offends me the most about Marge Tartaglione's assertion wasn't even necessarily the fact that she doesn't find waiting to be a problem; rather, it was the contempt, the dismissiveness, with which she spoke of voters, as though they were people waiting in line for a shiny new toy, rather than citizens of the United States trying to exercise the most precious of their civil liberties.

Thanks for your perspective, Hoblit.

[Spud]

It appears to me that her attitude is that voting is oh so much more important than those other things, not less, and that if people are willing to wait in line for something as unimportant as in iPod, they would certainly be willing to wait in line to vote.

Not saying she's right, just disagreeing with your characterization of her perspective, Jon.

[JonPorobil]

You might be right, Spud. What struck me as dismissive was her tone of voice and her repeated assertion that of "same people."

[erik]

I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement, and I too would like to see that happen

Then fuck everything else. If there is room for improvement, and you'd like to see it happen, then quit arguing for it NOT happening.

[Hoblit]

I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement, and I too would like to see that happen

Then fuck everything else. If there is room for improvement, and you'd like to see it happen, then quit arguing for it NOT happening.

Wha? Miss the point much?

[erik]

I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement, and I too would like to see that happen

Then fuck everything else. If there is room for improvement, and you'd like to see it happen, then quit arguing for it NOT happening.

Wha? Miss the point much?

Yes, I think you have missed the point.

[Hoblit]

Whateva do0d. You picked on something that didn't really have to do with the original conversation. So your brand of 'burn' is an easy formula, change the subject, win that argument.

I think McDonalds hamburgers could be improved...but I'm going keep buying em' up without complaint. I think standing in long lines to buy I-Pods could be improved...but I still chose to stand in that line with no significant cause to 'change the system' or necessarily relate it to being something somebody needs to address immediately.

Standing in line for a couple to a few hours to vote might be inconvenient, could even be improved, but in the end is worth it. I stand by it. Which is what we were actually discussing.

[anti-m]

Oregon's vote-by-mail system works exceptionally well! No muss, no fuss, no lines. Just sayin. ( ;

[Spud]

Standing in lines to buy iPods serves a function. It ensures that the first units will go to the true believers. It also ensures that the word of mouth marketing will be positive because no one is going to admit to being an idiot by standing in line for hours to buy a bad product. They have to say it is great. Apple isn't stupid. The lines will remain.

McDonalds has no need to improve their product, as long as the number of complaints is low. And if you do complain, you better be willing to put out a little extra dough for the improvements. You get what you pay for. That's what their customers want - a fast, cheap burger.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I like the vote by mail, but it just seems so vulnerable. But then again, what isn't. I recall the program designer coming forward some years ago admitting that he designed a program for electronic voting that could sway a 49/51 vote in anyone's favor and the project was funded by a congressman trying to win an election.